00:00:01.47
Gareth Pickering
Welcome back to another episode of the Father, Son, Brother's podcast. I'm joined today for the second time by Dr. Robert Glover, who is actually the first guest that we've had on the show for the second time. So thank you for being on the show and meeting with me again, Dr. Glover.
00:00:15.40
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, thanks for the invitation. I feel honored to be the the first guest who's done it twice.
00:00:21.50
Gareth Pickering
We touched on them a lot of your work around people-pleasing in our last conversation. i think I shared in that chat as well how much of a theme it had been for me growing up with this polite boy and just some of the challenges that it created in my life and how important your book had been. And it felt like we got to the end of the conversation and there was so much more still to unpack. And so, yeah, this is the desire to go a little bit deeper so into some of these themes. And also just to share, you know, i think...
00:00:45.42
Gareth Pickering
when I looked at the data, our last conversation was one of our most watched episodes. So it definitely resonates with a lot of men as a function of the fact that I think this is such an important piece. And I think something for men has been the idea of not being able to speak into our own needs and just how much of a problem that becomes later on in life. And so maybe you can start...
00:01:04.52
Gareth Pickering
By going a little bit deeper from where we spoke about last time, i was like why why do men feel like they can't you know express their needs? what's the What's the underlying perhaps cultural narrative or belief that we have and what is the the deeper impact of this?
00:01:17.83
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, you know it's interesting. i just like got back a couple days ago from a men's retreat that I was attending. And it was in a program that I participated with my coach for about five years. And I invited myself to one of his retreats. I said, you know, John, invite me to be a guest. And he goes, yeah, come on down.
00:01:36.45
Dr. Robert Glover
So I got to go hang out with like 60 plus guys. and And the men in the program, I didn't know know any of them. well There might have been a person or two I crossed paths with. Actually, one guy who had interviewed me before it was was there. and But I knew about eight or 10 of the guys who were assisting because I'd i'd been in the program before.
00:01:55.60
Dr. Robert Glover
And it it was great because I got to go there and just practice and connect and be with other men, get get fed and nurtured myself. And a common theme that I heard from the men that sounded very familiar because I'd heard it before in this program when I was a participant in it.
00:02:14.40
Dr. Robert Glover
And I've heard it in men I've worked with and I've dealt with it in my own life was this common theme that what you brought up of of basically men not even knowing it was okay to make their needs a priority.
00:02:28.46
Dr. Robert Glover
And you know, this ongoing theme that I've heard for years, because of the coaching and the therapy I've done and and my own work and being in this program for years, it just every yeah it's just repeat.
00:02:42.47
Dr. Robert Glover
the The guys talk about how they do everything under the sun to try to make the woman in their life happy.
00:02:48.21
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:02:48.32
Dr. Robert Glover
And she seems to never be happy. and And they're you know just giving more and more and more thinking that's the answer. I'll give more, she'll get happy. And she just, you know it gets more abusive, more unavailable, more unloving, more critical.
00:03:06.46
Dr. Robert Glover
and And they're going, what am I doing wrong? Well, and it's like this big revelation, this big wake up to go. And they'll go like, how come my needs don't matter? Well, because you haven't made your needs matter.
00:03:18.61
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:03:18.59
Dr. Robert Glover
You've been giving thinking that's the way you'll get your needs met.
00:03:18.75
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:03:22.40
Dr. Robert Glover
And in um Mr. Nice Guy, I call that covert contracts. And that was one of the biggest revelations for me as a recovering nice guy. and And a lot of people have told me that's ah a major takeaway from from the book is that covert contracts.
00:03:37.53
Dr. Robert Glover
I'll give to other people and in return, they'll give back to me. It's always an if then. If I do this for you, then you'll do that for me.
00:03:45.10
Gareth Pickering
So the covert contract there is like, I'll do something and without expressing directly what it is that I want in the expectation that it'll come.
00:03:45.36
Dr. Robert Glover
And
00:03:51.42
Gareth Pickering
Because we touched on it in the last piece and it was definitely a question I wanted to get to. So maybe just a bit more detail.
00:03:55.18
Dr. Robert Glover
Yeah, and you know, Neil Strauss has a brilliant quote. you know he wrote He wrote, you know, The Game and and and The Truth.
00:04:02.01
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:04:03.91
Dr. Robert Glover
And, you know, he's a pretty brilliant guy. And he's got a quote that he says, Unexpressed expectations are premeditated resentments.
00:04:15.07
Gareth Pickering
Yeah, I love that.
00:04:16.04
Dr. Robert Glover
First time I heard that, I thought, fuck, yeah. Because that's your covert contract. I'm not going to tell you what I want from you.
00:04:21.39
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:04:24.20
Dr. Robert Glover
I'm not going to express my wants, my needs, and my desires.
00:04:24.29
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:04:27.82
Dr. Robert Glover
I'm just going to try to make you happy. I'm going to give to you in the way that want you to give to me. And you got to read my mind and figure out what I want and give to me. But there's, there's, at least three major flaws with this approach with the men I work with. And I've and i've had to address these flaws in my life because i was that was my pattern as well.
00:04:47.14
Dr. Robert Glover
And I saw, like again, so much in this group of 60 strangers at this retreat.
00:04:49.62
Gareth Pickering
Right. Yes. Mm-hmm.
00:04:52.85
Dr. Robert Glover
One flaw I've already mentioned is yeah nobody the man isn't voicing that he has wants and needs.
00:05:01.91
Gareth Pickering
right
00:05:02.10
Dr. Robert Glover
Okay. He's not even saying, can you do this for me? Can you scratch my back? Can you pick this up for me on your way home from work? You know, can, can you X, Y, or Z, whatever it is. So he's not voicing it.
00:05:12.36
Gareth Pickering
yes
00:05:13.63
Dr. Robert Glover
So of course, if he's not voicing it, How can the person even know that there's that want and need there? We're thinking, well, I gave to you or you should read my mind like I read your mind. And and so that that resentment often builds up from the covert contracts, but it was never voiced.
00:05:27.52
Gareth Pickering
Yes. Mm-hmm.
00:05:28.30
Dr. Robert Glover
And oftentimes the whi the woman or the friend or the business partner or the family member is going, I didn't even know that was important to you. I didn't know you wanted that. you You never said it. How can I know it if you don't say it?
00:05:40.17
Dr. Robert Glover
So one issue is that it's unspoken. A second issue is that the men I work with, I call them nice guys, um typically surround themselves with people. Let's just say they typically have a minimal number of resources to help them get their needs met.
00:06:03.94
Dr. Robert Glover
And often the people they pick can't even fucking get their own needs met Because, you know, the nice guy or the man's going in, let me do this for you. Let me fix this for you. Let me solve this problem for you.
00:06:17.25
Dr. Robert Glover
let me Let me bail you out of this jam. let you And so we're we pick people that can't even manage their own lives. And then we wonder why it why they're not giving to us.
00:06:29.42
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, they're not even good at giving to themselves. Now, they they may take all the things we offer them and give them, and they're happy to take them. But They're under-functioning people a lot of times.
00:06:42.36
Dr. Robert Glover
And then we go, how come I'm not getting my needs met? Well, you keep picking under-functioning people to rescue and then wonder how come they don't give back to you. well they're not even good at giving it themselves.
00:06:53.79
Dr. Robert Glover
right So there's the second part. A third part about this, and I don't think I've ever just kind of laid it out quite as clearly as I'm doing it with you, but the third part is nice guys are shitty receivers.
00:07:06.71
Dr. Robert Glover
we're terrible at it. It makes us feel guilty. It makes us feel like we're doing something wrong. It makes us feel like we're going to owe you something. It can even make us feel smothered and trapped if I let you give, you know, something to me.
00:07:18.80
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:07:19.32
Dr. Robert Glover
And so every woman I've been with in my lifetime, I've been married three times and had a few other significant relationships. All the women tell me, Robert, you're difficult to give to.
00:07:31.43
Gareth Pickering
Hmm.
00:07:31.44
Dr. Robert Glover
And, you know, I assume if I hear that from enough sources, there must be truth to it.
00:07:31.51
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:07:37.09
Dr. Robert Glover
And part of it is, if I want something, I just go get it for myself.
00:07:37.25
Gareth Pickering
ratt
00:07:40.13
Dr. Robert Glover
But it's bigger than that. It really is, i don't ask for people to give to me. I'm not comfortable when they give to me. I'll give you a little seemingly trivial example.
00:07:52.87
Dr. Robert Glover
My wife is a very giving person. She loves to give. She's very generous. And we'll be sitting having dinner at the table and where we live in Mexico. The table's kind of in little bit of an outdoor area that's roofed in.
00:08:06.42
Dr. Robert Glover
And in the kitchen is just 20 steps away, 30 steps, whatever.
00:08:11.62
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:08:12.24
Dr. Robert Glover
And we'll be eating and maybe I want a fork. And I'll just get up from the table to go to the kitchen to go get a fork out of the kitchen. And every time I do something like that, my wife will go, where are you going?
00:08:25.82
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, she's not asking me that because she's trying to, you know, manage and, you know, where I go. I go, I need a fork. and And 100% of the time, my wife will say to me, let me get it for you.
00:08:38.04
Gareth Pickering
yes
00:08:38.66
Dr. Robert Glover
And I go, i can get it myself because I can, right? It's just a few steps into the kitchen to get my own fork.
00:08:44.90
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:08:45.08
Dr. Robert Glover
And my my wife sat me down ah few years ago. and and And gave me a lecture, basically, a very loving, kind lecture. She said, listen, you do everything for me and the family.
00:08:57.87
Dr. Robert Glover
You pay all the bills. I do. I'm the sole breadwinner in our family.
00:09:01.95
Gareth Pickering
and
00:09:02.79
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, you you take care of everything. You know, you pay the bills, you you to pay for the house, you pay for the food, you pay for the kids to go to private school, you pay for this, you pay for that. And she goes, let me give to you.
00:09:12.41
Gareth Pickering
right
00:09:16.00
Dr. Robert Glover
Let me express my love for you because I can't express it by paying the bills. She goes, but let me express it in doing things for you.
00:09:22.46
Gareth Pickering
Yeah. Yes.
00:09:25.82
Gareth Pickering
yes
00:09:26.01
Dr. Robert Glover
So I've learned, you know, when I get up to go get a fork and she goes, where are you going? I go to get a fork. She goes, let me get it for you.
00:09:36.32
Dr. Robert Glover
I'll pause, take a breath, and go, okay. I'll sit back down. Now, here's the problem for me. I don't know how you know how this lines up for other guys. My father was was kind of dominant with my mother.
00:09:50.03
Dr. Robert Glover
Mrs. Glover, get me a fork. Mrs. Glover, bring me something to eat. yeah He'd be sitting in his easy chair watching TV. Mrs. Glover, make me some popcorn. you know My dad was good at being demanding. He was ah the baby of the family, the youngest child. So maybe he got you know catered to.
00:10:05.01
Dr. Robert Glover
but I didn't want to be like my dad in that way. And my mother even raised me to be different from my father.
00:10:08.10
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:10:09.93
Dr. Robert Glover
She told me that when I was a kid.
00:10:11.76
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:10:12.14
Dr. Robert Glover
So I think a big part of that is I don't want to be like my dad. i don't want to be like the bad men I've heard all the women complain about, all the controlling assholes out there.
00:10:18.96
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:10:20.73
Dr. Robert Glover
So I'll just go get my own fork. and But the thing is, I'm depriving my wife of the joy of doing that for me, of showing her love.
00:10:30.46
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:10:30.45
Dr. Robert Glover
i and Another example of Several years ago, i was dating a woman who I met her because she sold me shoes at Nordstrom. She'd worked in retail sales a lot of her life.
00:10:43.41
Dr. Robert Glover
and And so one time she came over to my apartment and I'd washed some laundry, left it out on the couch. It was dry, but I was going to fold it. She comes in, starts folding my laundry. And I said, no, you don't need to do that. She goes, I like doing it.
00:10:57.18
Dr. Robert Glover
and And so I forced myself to let her fold my laundry. And then she says, well, i won't put it away for you. I'll just leave it here in a little stack. And I go, I'm not going to put it away either. I'm going to sit there and look at that stack and go, somebody loves me.
00:11:10.82
Dr. Robert Glover
Right. And so after that, If I washed and folded my laundry, she'd get mad at me. She said, leave your laundry for me to fold. Do you know how hard that was to just leave stacks of laundry on my couch for her to come? You know, she's going to come over for a date, right? And she ends up folding my laundry.
00:11:28.93
Dr. Robert Glover
That was really hard.
00:11:30.53
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:11:30.98
Dr. Robert Glover
Now, because I didn't want to be like my father, didn't want to be like other men. You know, I just had this internal wiring that is better than I give, you know, it's, it's, that makes me a good person.
00:11:42.34
Dr. Robert Glover
But the truth is, if I don't let people give to me, I'm robbing them of the joy, the pleasure of of being generous and giving. And who am i to rob people of that joy?
00:11:53.94
Dr. Robert Glover
So those three pieces, you know, one one is nice guys are using their covert contracts. They're not expressing what they want clearly. They surround themselves with people that aren't very good at giving in themselves, let alone anybody else.
00:12:06.01
Dr. Robert Glover
And even if somebody does try to give to us, we tend to not let them. And then, believe it or not, we get resentful and frustrated and go, how come, when's it going be my turn? How come, you know, I give to everybody else and nobody gives back to me?
00:12:20.01
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, we've created that.
00:12:20.16
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:12:21.84
Dr. Robert Glover
And so that is so challenging.
00:12:22.15
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:12:24.72
Dr. Robert Glover
And I think for a lot of men, we believe we're bad if we have needs or wants. We're going to get in trouble if we have needs or wants. People going mad at us if we have needs or wants. Even maybe I'm going to go to hell if I have needs or wants.
00:12:38.18
Dr. Robert Glover
it's ah it's It's like wired into our nervous system that you better not have needs and wants. You better take care of everybody else. Now, my guess is, is for a lot of us, that probably began in infancy when our caregivers probably weren't very good at being available to meet our needs and wants in a consistent way.
00:12:50.08
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:12:57.83
Dr. Robert Glover
And at a very early age, we learned maybe it was safer to have not have needs or wants.
00:13:04.00
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:13:04.38
Dr. Robert Glover
or to take care of the needs and wants of the people around us to maybe make sure they're okay to be there for us when we have needs and wants.
00:13:11.16
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:13:11.96
Dr. Robert Glover
So I think most for most of it it begins at a pretty early age.
00:13:12.44
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:13:16.02
Gareth Pickering
Hmm. What, how does somebody get back in touch with us? I could imagine somebody who's maybe in their forties or fifties, that's got 40 years of not even knowing what they want. Like maybe you can, you can touch on that. ah I think you spoke before about that, like ideal day or like perfect, perfect existence. Like how do we get back reconnected with this part? Because I feel it the same in my own work, you know, connecting with men and we have ah an idea of creating, I use a very similar tool called the perfect day exercise.
00:13:41.38
Gareth Pickering
It's surprisingly hard for people to know men, to know what it is that they even want.
00:13:45.97
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, I've, I've, uh, back when what I was like leading a lot of groups, when I was in, in the Seattle area in private practice for it, before I moved to Mexico, you know, I, I'm working lot of nice guys and, you know we talk about needs and wants. And one thing that nice guys will do is they'll try to, they'll want to intellectually talk about what what's the difference between a need and a want.
00:14:04.58
Dr. Robert Glover
And I go, it doesn't fucking matter. Don't just don't go there. You know, if it's important to you, that's all that matters.
00:14:11.48
Gareth Pickering
Express it. Yes.
00:14:12.14
Dr. Robert Glover
Right. You know, so I'd give him a legal pad and I said, let's just start talking about how can you, you know, start making your needs a priority? You know, what, what, what, what what are your needs and wants? And they would sit and stare at the legal pad.
00:14:23.75
Dr. Robert Glover
Like they didn't have a a clue to where you're going begin with it. and And one of the things I started doing is I say, what did you love to do when you were a kid? Before you develop this belief system, it wasn't okay for you to be happy. It wasn't okay for you to do what you wanted or have what you want.
00:14:39.79
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:14:39.82
Dr. Robert Glover
Oh, I used to ride my bike or I used to climb trees or I built tree forts or i played Legos or you know i played video games.
00:14:45.34
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:14:46.50
Dr. Robert Glover
And I go, okay, try that. Start with that. maybe Maybe go do something that you used to find joy in. You mean i'm supposed to go build a tree fort? Well, I don't know, maybe.
00:14:57.12
Dr. Robert Glover
But maybe give yourself that same permission to just go spontaneously play. Just go do what what what what but what you enjoy doing, right? Without asking, is it okay that I do this?
00:15:12.42
Dr. Robert Glover
Now, a lot of guys will tell me, and I call them on this. I go, well, you know, it's not that important to me, or I don't know what I need or want. and And I'll go, well, wait a minute. You know, how did you decide when to get out of bed this morning.
00:15:26.35
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, you know, I needed to get up and do this. how'd you decide what to eat for breakfast? Well, you know, I like to eat eggs in the morning for breakfast. Okay. Well, you know, how about what do you do watch on TV? How do you know what to watch? Well, you know, I like these kinds of shows. So what I found that a lot of the men really can identify, you know, that they are actually getting up and doing what they want.
00:15:48.62
Dr. Robert Glover
So they do have some inclination. But I don't know, we men tend to make things so difficult, like, like well, but you know you know, I should be doing more. you know or So the truth is, I think most of us probably do do a lot of what we want. Maybe we do it in secret, or we hide it, or we blame somebody else for the fact that we can't get it, or we're not doing what we want.
00:16:10.35
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:16:10.32
Dr. Robert Glover
And then we go like, look at porn or do something like that, you know, because that that's, you know, that's the way a lot of men go get their unwanted needs met. They go look at porn. It's their little secret emotional tree fort that they can go climb up and pull the ladder up and nobody bugs them and they can do whatever they want.
00:16:27.49
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:16:29.11
Dr. Robert Glover
But it's a cheap substitute and probably a cop-out for us just truly getting our needs met. So what I often do in my workshops is I do a practice that I call cooperative reciprocal relationships. And I often build that in with, you know, what what does our ideal life look like?
00:16:45.98
Dr. Robert Glover
And what does ah an ideal day look like?
00:16:46.05
Gareth Pickering
Uh huh.
00:16:48.10
Dr. Robert Glover
That's part of our ideal life.
00:16:49.79
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:16:50.14
Dr. Robert Glover
But that cooperative reciprocal relationships, I walk them through it where you just basically get three pieces of paper. Now, it's good to have maybe like a big poster board or big, you know, butcher paper.
00:17:02.52
Dr. Robert Glover
Get some colored markers.
00:17:04.23
Gareth Pickering
ye
00:17:04.39
Dr. Robert Glover
And what I have them do is kind of draw a stick figure with them in the middle of the paper and draw like a, you know, a bucket. Like we got a bucket. We got to get filled every day to, to you know, we got to get our needs met.
00:17:15.73
Dr. Robert Glover
We got to get that bucket filled for us to have energy, to stay alive, to enjoy life, to have more to give. And then on page one, I have them put a bunch of circles with an arrow pointing both ways towards them and towards the circle.
00:17:32.06
Dr. Robert Glover
And these circles, I say, represent their cooperative reciprocal relationships. And I have them break that down into four categories, people, professionals, practices, and packs.
00:17:43.84
Dr. Robert Glover
And what this is, these are the resources that help fill our bucket while we also are giving to them. So in terms of a friend, a cooperative reciprocal relationship, you have a buddy you just enjoy hanging out with.
00:17:57.71
Dr. Robert Glover
You love going out to, you know, having a beer with them or taking a bike ride with them or going on a hike or whatever. You just enjoy the time and they enjoy it as Both of you are getting your bucket filled.
00:18:06.65
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:18:08.37
Dr. Robert Glover
It's cooperative, it's reciprocal. You benefit from that. Professionals might be, you know, I've got my dentist. i got my I've had a couple of conversations with my accountant in the last couple days because he's doing my business taxes.
00:18:22.72
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, i've I've got a couple of, I've got a life coach. I've got a nutrition coach. I've got of a financial advisor. just had a talk with him this week.
00:18:35.22
Dr. Robert Glover
So these are all professional cooperative reciprocal relationships. I get something out of, you know, what they give to me. I pay them money, you know, so they, because they receive money, they're getting something out of it.
00:18:44.43
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:18:47.51
Gareth Pickering
Got it.
00:18:47.62
Dr. Robert Glover
You and I actually have a cooperative reciprocal relationship. I get value by coming on your show and getting some publicity and visibility for what I do. Excuse me.
00:18:59.30
Dr. Robert Glover
yeah You get value because, hey, i'm I'm your most popular guy that you've interviewed, right? So, and then the people watching it get value because hopefully we're saying something of value, you know, on this.
00:19:05.27
Gareth Pickering
All right.
00:19:11.56
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:19:12.58
Dr. Robert Glover
So everybody's benefiting from it. So we got people, friends, associates, family members, professionals, practices. Well, I get up and do my morning pages every morning. I write in my morning pages.
00:19:26.35
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:19:26.32
Dr. Robert Glover
I do some meditative reading.
00:19:26.60
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:19:28.12
Dr. Robert Glover
I do some gratitude practice. i I take my dog for a walk every morning. I try to get to the gym with regularity. I do breath work, other practices. So there's practices that help fill our bucket as well.
00:19:43.01
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:19:43.25
Dr. Robert Glover
And then there's packs. And I like the alliteration, the four Ps. Packs are just groups of people, like me going down and being part of that that group retreat down and in California this last week.
00:19:54.33
Dr. Robert Glover
Just being around that group of men was so filling for me. And afterwards, I've gotten so many messages and messages from both guys that were there that I met, guys that have known me for a while saying, Robert, thank you for your generosity. Thank you for being there for the men.
00:20:08.92
Dr. Robert Glover
Thank you. Guys are saying, Robert, thank you for just connecting with me, chatting with me. But I get value out of it as well. So the PACs help. So page one is to identify all the people in your life, friends, associates, you and then the professionals that you have, the the practices you have, and the packs that you have. And I say, you know, get different colors for the four categories and put all that you can think of on that page one. So it needs to be a pretty big piece of paper.
00:20:37.47
Dr. Robert Glover
Now, page one is to help you see what resources you have for getting your needs met. Because like you might have a buddy that there, he's on page one. yeah And I say, put the name, don't just put friends, name every friend that you have, right?
00:20:51.58
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:20:52.75
Dr. Robert Glover
And that way you'll go, oh, I haven't talked to that friend in six months or a year. Well, they're not much of a resource if you don't actually connect with them. And I remember I did this in a workshop one year and ah like on a Saturday. And then one of the guys in the workshop came back Sunday and he said, hey, one of my friends, i haven't talked to him in year, probably tail end of COVID.
00:21:13.89
Dr. Robert Glover
and And I called him yesterday and me and another buddy that we've got in common. We're going to Zoom each other every month. We put it on the calendar. So we might have it on page one, but if we're not using it, it's not going to help us.
00:21:27.90
Dr. Robert Glover
Okay. You know, I might have a gym membership, but if i don go and don't go to the gym, it's not going to help me. Right.
00:21:33.65
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:21:33.74
Dr. Robert Glover
I might have a chiropractor, but if I don't go to my chiropractor or my massage therapist, or if I don't talk to him my accountant when he calls, it's not to help me. All right. So it reminds us to use those resources.
00:21:44.21
Dr. Robert Glover
All right. Page two of the CRR practice, Cooperative Reciprocal Relationship. is put a picture of you again in the middle, bucket that needs filled.
00:21:56.23
Dr. Robert Glover
And now we're going to list cooperative reciprocal relationships we need, we want to help you know give us that ideal life, to help us fill our bucket.
00:22:03.42
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:22:07.63
Dr. Robert Glover
And over the years, that's been various things for me. I mentioned this men's group, this men's program that I attended, must be about eight years ago. i was in ah I was leading a workshop teaching this practice, and and I just said on page two, I need a men's program.
00:22:23.36
Dr. Robert Glover
I need a men's group. I'm i'm um just gotten married. We're having some struggles. I'm living in Mexico. I feel isolated. Don't have enough good guy friends. And as soon as we finished the practice, a guy said, Robert, I'm i'm in this group with this guy. He's worked with David Data for 10 years. We do these retreats and we have calls every every other week. And I go, I'm in, sign me up.
00:22:45.26
Dr. Robert Glover
So I did. I signed up and and did that for five years with that coach. And that's the same program I just dropped in on this last week.
00:22:51.40
Gareth Pickering
great.
00:22:52.49
Dr. Robert Glover
And now I've got like I've got like 30 to 50 men I could call up at 3 in the morning. They would answer. And I said, can you come come help me out? They'd get on plane and come help me out.
00:23:04.13
Dr. Robert Glover
So I didn't have that. But I put it on page two. I need a men's program.
00:23:08.43
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:23:08.90
Dr. Robert Glover
During that, around that time, i also was sharing, i was putting, when I do this in groups, I need a new accountant. And now I love my accountant. I've had him, i don't know, maybe about eight years. He's a total numbers nerd.
00:23:20.83
Dr. Robert Glover
I, you know, I'm not, my old accountant, I kept getting the stuff from the IRS s where they'd go, well, you didn't pay this on time or you owe this. And, and you know, mainly because his assistant was fucking everything up.
00:23:31.79
Dr. Robert Glover
With this accountant, I've never had the IRS, you know, say you owe me this money or come take care of this. So I love that.
00:23:38.56
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:23:40.30
Dr. Robert Glover
I shared that need a financial advisor. And at a workshop, a guy walks up to me and said, Robert, this is my second workshop with you. You've made a difference in my life. I want to make a difference in your life. I'm a financial advisor.
00:23:52.91
Dr. Robert Glover
So I did due diligence. I even flew my wife up with me up to San Francisco to meet him. She don't even speak English, but I want her to meet him just for the feel. And he's been, you know, managing my finances, my investment, you know, for the last eight years or so.
00:24:01.47
Gareth Pickering
listen
00:24:07.81
Dr. Robert Glover
So I put them on the list.
00:24:10.44
Gareth Pickering
So while you take a sip there, i'm just going to check in with you. So the second page is really ah a self-identification process to see the thing the resources that you need in your life. So you've got visibility of what it is that you're trying to call in, in this case, a men's group or relationship coach or something like that.
00:24:17.96
Dr. Robert Glover
Right.
00:24:23.51
Dr. Robert Glover
Right. And so like just a year ago, I was doing this again. And I shared, you know, I just finished a fitness program, but I need a nutrition coach. And so I just shared that in this workshop I was leading. It's on page two.
00:24:37.88
Dr. Robert Glover
Two guys raised their hand and I know a nutrition coach. So I followed up with both of them. And I've been working with one of them now for over a year. And you know, Lost a bunch of weight. I'm in good shape. She's turned more into an all-around fitness coach for me, even a life coach.
00:24:53.05
Dr. Robert Glover
So I just asked and it shows up.
00:24:55.51
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:24:55.62
Dr. Robert Glover
Excuse me. yeah Got some kind of tickle going on in the throat, but ah we'll we'll cut that part out.
00:25:04.32
Gareth Pickering
Yeah. Also, just while you have another sub there, you are looking in great shape. So since a year ago, you definitely lost some weight and you're looking vibrant and and healthy.
00:25:12.06
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, I just went to visit a friend on my way back from California. And I hadn't seen him probably in a year or so. and And, you know, I've hung out with him and his son a little bit. We had dinner.
00:25:23.13
Dr. Robert Glover
And afterwards, he wrote me, said, oh, Nikki said, you know, you look like you're 58 years old. well I'm 69 going on 70. And I said, OK, next time um so I see you I'll give him the $20, you know, for giving me the compliment. He said, what, $20 for that compliment?
00:25:37.97
Dr. Robert Glover
He goes, no. He said, really, you look so alive. You're so energetic. And, um, and I would, people tell me that quite a bit, Robert, when I'm your age, I want to have that kind of energy. You have more energy than I do, you know, and I really do think it's because I do make taking care of my needs a priority.
00:25:55.02
Dr. Robert Glover
I get enough sleep. I mean, I got to the gym earlier today. I found a way to squeeze that in between the calls I had today. I thought, I don't want to put it off to the end of the day. I'm going to get it in.
00:26:06.20
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:26:06.26
Dr. Robert Glover
I do have an nutrition coach.
00:26:06.44
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:26:08.21
Dr. Robert Glover
I eat healthy. I do relax. I do things that take good care, that fill my bucket up, that the help me. Okay, so that's page two.
00:26:18.59
Dr. Robert Glover
Identify what are your needs to to put on page one.
00:26:18.91
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:26:22.87
Dr. Robert Glover
So now you've got that resource there.
00:26:24.66
Gareth Pickering
but
00:26:24.85
Dr. Robert Glover
Page three of the exercise is where you identify relationships that are no longer cooperative or reciprocal. And you either probably need to have a difficult conversation, renegotiate an agreement, or just cut something or somebody out of your life.
00:26:42.52
Dr. Robert Glover
for Prune it out, open up space for something new to come. I mean, this might be a buddy that, yeah yeah you know, you were great friends in college. You went out drinking, you know, checking out the babes, whatever.
00:26:54.16
Dr. Robert Glover
And now maybe you've moved on from that. Maybe you don't drink anymore. Maybe you're married, maybe whatever. And, you know, that's all he wants to do. and and And, you know, maybe maybe it's time to move on from that kind of relationship.
00:27:05.52
Dr. Robert Glover
Maybe it's a business relationship where you go you know what? i'm I'm doing, you know, 80% of the work and only getting 20% of the credit. Maybe we need to renegotiate something. Maybe it's something in a relationship with, you know, an intimate partner or family member. Say, you know what? This doesn't work for me anymore.
00:27:23.39
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, if we're going to keep doing this, I need it to be like this. You know, go have that difficult conversation. And sometimes we move them off of page three back to page one.
00:27:34.93
Dr. Robert Glover
Sometimes we just completely trim them out and it's time to move on.
00:27:39.00
Gareth Pickering
Some of those could be addictions, cannabis, porn, like would you list those on number three?
00:27:39.31
Dr. Robert Glover
So,
00:27:42.86
Dr. Robert Glover
you know, that's that's actually a great illustration. It doesn't have to be a person. So, yeah, it might be porn. It might be cannabis. it might be ketamine. It it might be.
00:27:53.79
Dr. Robert Glover
you know, crappy food. It might be, you know, being a couch potato. You know, I don't need this anymore. I need to, so that's, I never really had thought it.
00:28:00.78
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:28:04.01
Dr. Robert Glover
So I love that. Never had thought about that before, that at page three could also be habits that don't serve us. It's is's interesting. Just yesterday on a call for Integration Nation, my men's program, I interviewed the chief therapist and CEO of Alan Carr's Easyway program.
00:28:23.47
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:28:23.75
Dr. Robert Glover
Now, I'd never heard of this until a few months ago when some guys were talking about it on the on the forum for Integration Nation. And some guys, it's primarily, the it began as a stop smoking program where how you use can stop program stop smoking without using willpower, without you know the side effects, without withdrawal, without you know gaining weight.
00:28:30.80
Gareth Pickering
Just share what it is for somebody who perhaps doesn't know what Alan Carr's work is.
00:28:38.85
Gareth Pickering
That's how I know it. Yeah.
00:28:51.51
Dr. Robert Glover
And, um, and they developed a whole program basically,
00:28:56.68
Dr. Robert Glover
to basically get help you get over the fear, the sense of deprivation, how could I live without this, or it's going be so hard. And yeah I think it's actually one big hypnotic induction.
00:29:03.74
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:29:06.89
Dr. Robert Glover
i asked I asked him about that yesterday. He goes, yeah, that's actually pretty accurate. We, you know, we work with your subconscious to, you know, help you really reframe the addiction because the addiction, they say is the little monster, the addiction to nicotine.
00:29:22.45
Dr. Robert Glover
He says, you know, really, it leaves your body in just a few days and it's not really all that rough. The big monster is what's in our head. Oh, I'm to miss it so much. it's gonna be so hard.
00:29:33.42
Dr. Robert Glover
It'd be so difficult.
00:29:33.89
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:29:34.94
Dr. Robert Glover
I'm going want a cigarette. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. So they go to work on the big monster. So, um you know, I interviewed him yesterday and they, they've actually taken that model of the Alan Carr easy way.
00:29:46.49
Dr. Robert Glover
And, you know, they've got like, like ah over 120 books. And, you know, they they they now deal with, you know, not just smoking, but caffeine, alcohol, cocaine, even the easy way.
00:29:59.59
Dr. Robert Glover
Alan Carr's the easy way to quit using, and quit shooting, you know, quit snorting cocaine, quit shooting heroin.
00:29:59.81
Gareth Pickering
Wow.
00:30:04.37
Dr. Robert Glover
ah And, you know, some of the guys on the call were asking about pornography or screen addiction. Those were two real common ones that came up.
00:30:15.02
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:30:14.99
Dr. Robert Glover
And they said those are both things that are in the pipeline.
00:30:15.12
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:30:18.56
Dr. Robert Glover
I mean, Alan Carr has been dead for a while, but they have a, you know, this this guy that i interviewed, Robin Haley, still, you know, they keep developing books based on that model.
00:30:29.73
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:30:29.95
Dr. Robert Glover
um So, yeah, you know, it might be a good idea. you know, i was I was in the gym earlier and I have to say, i was telling my my coach this the other day. I said, my biggest frustration at the gym is all the people on their phones.
00:30:45.44
Dr. Robert Glover
And I'm watching the you know a guy in between sets.
00:30:45.63
Gareth Pickering
Oh my god. Yeah.
00:30:49.65
Dr. Robert Glover
It's like a person can't do their reps, you know rest a minute or two to do. Everybody, men and women both, pull their phone out. and And I don't think they're logging their reps. I don't think they're watching a video to show them correct form.
00:31:06.54
Dr. Robert Glover
I think they're fucking scrolling Instagram. They're on Facebook, right?
00:31:10.34
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:31:10.98
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, like you can't even go in between a rep without getting your phone out and seeing what's on Instagram that wasn't there two minutes ago.
00:31:16.96
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:31:19.81
Dr. Robert Glover
The last time you looked in between a rep.
00:31:20.34
Gareth Pickering
Right. Yeah.
00:31:22.50
Dr. Robert Glover
but You know, again, were we're so addicted to so many these things. and And I call those. you know pseudo or junk food resources. We we think, oh, but you know that we're using that to fill our bucket, but it's like junk food.
00:31:30.90
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:31:35.31
Dr. Robert Glover
You eat it, it fills you up, but then you feel bad and and you're you're still hungry. So we've gotten we've gotten so addicted to all these substitutes for real quality things like friendships,
00:31:41.87
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:31:48.96
Dr. Robert Glover
spent time together, challenge, exercise, getting enough sleep, you know, listening to music, walking in nature. You know, we we've we've lost all these things that have value because and and andre we're substituting scrolling on Instagram or on the swipe right apps or, you know, binging on YouTube, you know, death, what they call death scrolling or doom scrolling, you know, it's like,
00:32:13.31
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm. want to scroll link? Right.
00:32:16.06
Dr. Robert Glover
Yeah. Put those on page three. You know, I, I, I do that with sports apps. Oh, any new articles about my favorite team?
00:32:26.61
Dr. Robert Glover
And, you know, I, I've kind of started watching that and I go, you know what?
00:32:26.91
Gareth Pickering
OK.
00:32:31.15
Dr. Robert Glover
I can check a couple times a day, but I don't need to check every hour. And, you know, just because I found that sometimes I just want to just lay there and just, you know, just scroll through, you know, yeah ESPN app or through the local sports app or, you know, through the NFL app or the NBA app or or the, you know, Major League Baseball app.
00:32:47.52
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:32:52.33
Dr. Robert Glover
And I'm going, wait a minute. I either could just be really be relaxing right now or I could be at the gym or I could be talking to my wife or
00:33:00.79
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:33:01.20
Dr. Robert Glover
And yeah, i think i think it's a good point. Some of these page three things, we go, do I really need these in my life? Do they serve me?
00:33:09.05
Gareth Pickering
Do you think just putting them on page three is enough? Do you think that just bringing awareness is ah is an important step? Or do you think that there's something else that's potentially going to support people? I mean, just putting it there and having awareness, I think is an important first step.
00:33:21.16
Gareth Pickering
But I get a sense that some of these things are, yeah.
00:33:21.83
Dr. Robert Glover
It's a good start.
00:33:23.61
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:33:23.69
Dr. Robert Glover
It's a good start. you Here's the thing, and and and I'm sure you're aware of this, and probably probably most of us are, All this stuff that we get addicted to is actually designed and built to addict us.
00:33:39.45
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:33:40.10
Dr. Robert Glover
There's a payoff for somebody. i When I was interviewing Robin Haley yesterday for The Easy Way, one of the things about, and in I'm listening to the audio book driving across Northern California oregon and Oregon into Washington a couple days ago before I did the interview.
00:33:55.38
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:33:55.61
Dr. Robert Glover
And I don't smoke. and never have. And, you know, that one of the things they do with their approach is they tell the person, don't try to quit. Just keep smoking till you get to the end of the book. When you get to the end of the book, smoke your last cigarette, you're done.
00:34:10.58
Dr. Robert Glover
They really, again, they build this hypnotic trance with, you know, the suggesting how it's going to be, you're going be fine, you're ready to have your last cigarette. So don't try to quit now, just keep smoking.
00:34:18.67
Gareth Pickering
Yes. Yes.
00:34:20.94
Dr. Robert Glover
And they even give various assignments for how to smoke a cigarette various ways while while you're still reading or listening to the book.
00:34:27.40
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:34:27.64
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, I'm driving across barren, you know, Eastern Oregon. know, it's just like high plain desert.
00:34:33.69
Gareth Pickering
ah
00:34:33.81
Dr. Robert Glover
And there's not much scenery. And I'm thinking, well, you know i don't smoke. So you know it's not like I can listen to the book and keep having a cigarette. So I pulled over to truck stop and bought a bag of nacho cheese Doritos and a can of Red Bull.
00:34:48.77
Dr. Robert Glover
And I thought, at least I'm going to enjoy some junk food and and, you know, a shitty energy drink so I can at least feel like what it might be feel like to keep smoking until I get to the end of the book.
00:34:59.59
Gareth Pickering
Okay.
00:35:00.11
Dr. Robert Glover
So
00:35:01.75
Dr. Robert Glover
the thing, you know, which which brings me to Red Bull and nacho cheese Doritos. Those things are fucking addictive. You know, you can't just eat two nacho cheese Doritos.
00:35:09.96
Gareth Pickering
Very.
00:35:13.15
Dr. Robert Glover
You can't do it. You know, I bought a small bag on purpose.
00:35:14.79
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:35:17.08
Dr. Robert Glover
And if I had a big bag, I'd eat the whole big bag. So I got a small bag and I got a small can of Red Bull because I know if it's can that big, I'd drink the whole Red Bull. That stuff is all designed to hook you and to keep you eating, drinking.
00:35:30.56
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:35:33.23
Dr. Robert Glover
Pornography is designed to keep you hooked and watching.
00:35:36.58
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:35:37.57
Dr. Robert Glover
Apps on your phone are designed. Instagram, you know, maybe is one of the most addictive things ever created.
00:35:40.53
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:35:46.30
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:35:46.82
Dr. Robert Glover
A guy posted on the online forum for my program today about, he said, get this guy who I worked with ah to break a video game addiction. And this guy who described his video game addiction, and you know, it was as bad as a crack cocaine addiction to video games.
00:36:05.64
Dr. Robert Glover
They're designed to keep you hooked. Every app on our phone is designed to say, come back and look again, come back and look, come spend time.
00:36:14.45
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:36:15.51
Dr. Robert Glover
That's what they're built to do. Now, they're not even actually built to give information. They're built to get our data, you us advertising, know, on some other app.
00:36:23.18
Gareth Pickering
Sell advertising, exactly.
00:36:27.75
Dr. Robert Glover
So they're built to be addictive. So in a sense, they have tapped into our evolutionary programming. Evolutionary programming for carbs, evolutionary programming for connection, evolutionary programming for sex.
00:36:43.04
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:36:43.18
Dr. Robert Glover
All that's built into us. And if somebody can come up with a cheap, easy way to, you know, push that button in our evolutionary programming with a bag of chips, a can of soda, you know, pornography, video game, a dating app, you know,
00:37:02.47
Dr. Robert Glover
I've been seeing more and more stuff about dating apps lately that basically they become a addict they addicting and they don't, and nobody's actually dating or getting laid.
00:37:13.39
Dr. Robert Glover
Nobody's actually in relationship, but they're just swiping right constantly and they're just built to addict you.
00:37:17.71
Gareth Pickering
Yep. yep
00:37:19.71
Dr. Robert Glover
So I think we just need to know we're fighting against something powerful where scientists backed by lots of money have worked hard Whether it's a nacho cheese Dorito, a can of Red Bull, Instagram, you know, Mark Zuckerberg didn't get to be one of the richest guys in the world by putting out something that people never want to look at, right?
00:37:43.82
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:37:44.22
Dr. Robert Glover
Why do you think he built Meta and wants to get us on glasses and get us into AI to where we never live in any reality? We're in, you know, we're in the matrix 24-7. So yeah, that's an excellent point that it's a good place to start by putting it on the list.
00:37:55.27
Gareth Pickering
Yeah. Yes. Yep.
00:38:01.97
Dr. Robert Glover
But we have to ask ourselves the question, do we really want to stop doing this thing? And you know that's kind of going back to the easy way without necessarily trying to plug them. They actually turn it around to to say, actually, here's how much happier you'll be without it. Here's why you don't feel good where you're doing it.
00:38:20.17
Dr. Robert Glover
Here's, you know, the fear of quitting it. You know, the deprivation that we have to help you, you know, overcome before you you quit it. Because once we get addicted to this stuff, we're going to, what am i going to do without it?
00:38:34.03
Dr. Robert Glover
But like they say in this easy way program, you know, before you took your first cigarette, you were a happy non-smoker. You know, it wasn't until you got hooked on nicotine that you became an unhappy smoker.
00:38:45.78
Dr. Robert Glover
So the goal is to get back before, you know, these, these phones, right?
00:38:45.91
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:38:50.47
Dr. Robert Glover
These smartphones, how long they've been around 15, 16 years total.
00:38:55.70
Gareth Pickering
Probably maybe a little longer, but yeah, somewhere around there.
00:38:59.04
Dr. Robert Glover
Yeah. I, I, I stood in line bought the first iPhone that came out. Um, And, you know they didn't even have apps on them back then. Remember that?
00:39:07.45
Gareth Pickering
Right. Yeah, it was super easy.
00:39:07.69
Dr. Robert Glover
ah apps came Apps came a little bit later.
00:39:08.78
Gareth Pickering
Yeah. Right.
00:39:10.25
Dr. Robert Glover
And I thought, what what are good are apps? what why why you know why why What are the apps all about? Well, it's the apps that would addict us to the phone. ah The phone isn't enough to addict us.
00:39:17.75
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:39:19.77
Dr. Robert Glover
It's the apps that do
00:39:21.24
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:39:21.87
Dr. Robert Glover
So I didn't plan on going down this rabbit hole, but since you asked the question, you know, it these things don't serve us well, but it is so easy to just get a sense of dependency on them.
00:39:24.31
Gareth Pickering
No, I'm interested. Hmm.
00:39:36.02
Dr. Robert Glover
And it's usually just mindless, you know unconsciously opening our phone to look at it. So I make rules for myself. I can't take my phone to the bathroom. Just, do I really need my phone in the bathroom?
00:39:44.70
Gareth Pickering
Hmm.
00:39:46.94
Dr. Robert Glover
Can I go do ah urination meditation, not take the phone? Can I just go sit, you know, without having a reader's digest or having my, you know, phone?
00:39:54.45
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:39:55.58
Dr. Robert Glover
So, you know, maybe we start by just making some little rules that doesn't feel like you can. One thing that I tell men, this always puts guys in shock, especially the younger men. I'll say, take the social media apps off your phone.
00:40:09.37
Dr. Robert Glover
Have them on a desktop or a computer. Now, a lot of young guys don't all they have is their phone. But they're they put it you know they're built to be on our phones because they can track us more effectively.
00:40:19.77
Dr. Robert Glover
That's that's their whole goal.
00:40:20.04
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:40:21.17
Dr. Robert Glover
Instagram even has a completely different platform for a computer than it does on your phone. There's certain Instagram things you can't do on a computer. You have to do them on your phone because they want you in your phone on it.
00:40:31.51
Gareth Pickering
Yep.
00:40:33.90
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:40:33.95
Dr. Robert Glover
But if you take them ah if you take these apps off your phone, It tends to make you a little bit more conscious if you sit down and look at them on a computer because you're not standing in line with your computer.
00:40:43.84
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:40:46.80
Dr. Robert Glover
You're not waiting in traffic on your, you know, so we we can't even drive in traffic without even scrolling.
00:40:46.98
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:40:49.45
Gareth Pickering
Exactly.
00:40:53.71
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:40:55.13
Dr. Robert Glover
So take them off your phone, put it, just look at them on your computer.
00:40:59.49
Gareth Pickering
One of the things I think this is pointing to, which we spoke about before we got on air and I'd love to dive into um, what we both share of deep passion for, which is bringing men together around community. And I think a lot of these addictions specifically, like the social media stuff is really ah ah lack of connection that drives us to feel like we're being connected through the social media world. And I'd love to know you know but your what your relationship has been like. I know you have a very thriving community through integration nation. And yeah, like how, because I feel like this could be the piece. You know, one thing is recognizing that I've got too much time on social media, but it's like, what do I replace that with?
00:41:34.21
Gareth Pickering
I would suggest whatever else brings you connection, real connection. So yeah, maybe you want to speak into something around that as ah as a theme
00:41:37.83
Dr. Robert Glover
yeah
00:41:41.79
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, you know, as I said, you know, without going, you know, too far down the rabbit hole of social media stuff, that's not my field of expertise. I just see, you know, men hooked on it. And I've got my own, you know, tendency to get hooked on stuff.
00:41:56.67
Dr. Robert Glover
is that anything that's going to addict us is probably playing into some evolutionary biological need. Again, whether it's carbs, whether it's connection, whether it's sexuality, those are all part of our human imperative. That's what was essential for our survival and our reproduction, our continuation of of our gene pool.
00:42:16.48
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:42:16.81
Dr. Robert Glover
So yes, I do think that the social media and and these apps are, are highly effective because they do play into a deep need we humans have, and that is ah a need of connection.
00:42:31.11
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:42:31.14
Dr. Robert Glover
Our survival depends upon it. Our reproduction depends on being connected to other people. our Our human ancestors, say especially the the men, you know we grew up in a tribe of men where we went out and hunted together and gathered together and fought wars together.
00:42:47.72
Dr. Robert Glover
And then we'd come back and feed the tribe and go out and do it again. But we did it as a tribe. We didn't do it alone. the The whole lone wolf mentality is a myth because number one, if a person did just try to survive on their own, they wouldn't.
00:43:01.89
Dr. Robert Glover
They would die. that You can't. Back in harsh hunter-gatherer times, it could not be done.
00:43:07.55
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:43:07.97
Dr. Robert Glover
And if you were alone, Who you going to fuck? who are you going to pass your DNA on to, right? So any tendency to be a loner tends to become extinct in the gene pool pretty quickly.
00:43:20.11
Gareth Pickering
Right.
00:43:20.42
Dr. Robert Glover
So it's in our gene pool have a depth of connection.
00:43:25.00
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:43:25.13
Dr. Robert Glover
And really up until about 50 or 60 years ago, most men did have but a connection with other men. mean, if you take the first million and a half years of our our human existence, it was in the tribe.
00:43:39.16
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:43:39.18
Dr. Robert Glover
We did everything with the tribe.
00:43:39.26
Gareth Pickering
Yeah. Right.
00:43:40.63
Dr. Robert Glover
We hunted together with the men. We fought together. We gathered, you know, we we celebrated, you know, we fucked the women together. know, we did everything communally. We had tribe.
00:43:49.76
Gareth Pickering
ye
00:43:50.71
Dr. Robert Glover
About 10,000 years ago, some of our I'm going to say not so bright ancestors decided it would pay off to just settle down, own a piece of land and quit moving around and just start owning stuff.
00:44:03.59
Dr. Robert Glover
That's where the patriarchy began. It's an ownership mentality. I'm going to own my land.
00:44:07.15
Gareth Pickering
right
00:44:08.22
Dr. Robert Glover
I'm going own a goat. I'm going own a tree. going to own a cow. I'm going to own my wife. I'm going to own her vagina. I'm going to own my kids. And that that's kind of the whole patriarchal ownership model. I'm going to own slaves. Everything became property.
00:44:21.33
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:44:21.71
Dr. Robert Glover
Now, the truth is, even though that actually allowed us to have a bigger population because we could actually, as we industrialized, we could feed more and more people.
00:44:33.70
Dr. Robert Glover
Everything I've ever read said it took away from quality of life. Now, but even during that time, for the last 10,000 years, a boy, when he was born, soon, you know, was leaving the house to go be around dad, grandpa, uncles, cousins, and maybe did an internship or learned a trade from another man.
00:44:50.19
Gareth Pickering
yes
00:44:55.88
Dr. Robert Glover
So we were around men.
00:44:56.06
Gareth Pickering
yes
00:44:57.45
Dr. Robert Glover
Even when we kind of left the agrarian society and became more of an industrialized society and families started moving to cities and then suburbs started developing, the men still were primarily around men.
00:44:57.50
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:45:09.69
Dr. Robert Glover
They went to work around men. They had their Kiwanis, their Rotary, their Lions Club, their Masons. Men still had men's groups, right?
00:45:18.87
Gareth Pickering
but
00:45:19.23
Dr. Robert Glover
Boys still saw their fathers with some regularity. It was really only after World War II when the men went away to fight the wars in many of the countries around the world, and the women started going into the factories to to build the bombs, to build the munitions, to you know to be nurses in the hospitals.
00:45:39.14
Dr. Robert Glover
And then when the men came back from war Some of the women kind of went back in the home, back to being homemakers, but many stayed. And then feminism came along started telling women, you know, don't be a housewife, don't be a your wife, don't be a mother, get a career.
00:45:52.88
Dr. Robert Glover
That's the highest goal. So now, you know, all the institutions where men used to go be with men got dismantled. Now, I'm not saying that women shouldn't work or, you know, be in the workplace.
00:46:01.23
Gareth Pickering
Watching porn.
00:46:03.75
Dr. Robert Glover
That's not the point I'm making at all. The point I'm making that up until about World War II, men always were around men. Now, all of a sudden, that's not the case.
00:46:15.00
Dr. Robert Glover
All the places where men used to go be with men, and now boys often are not raised by their fathers. And nowadays, a boy often grows up, you know,
00:46:26.01
Dr. Robert Glover
Watching Netflix, playing video games, you know, surfing the Internet on his phone, looking at porn.
00:46:29.25
Gareth Pickering
watching porn
00:46:32.28
Dr. Robert Glover
and And, you know, most men grow up nowadays without even knowing what it means to connect with men. And most of us have father issues where, you know, we don't we don't trust dad, trust don't trust men who didn't trust dad.
00:46:46.75
Dr. Robert Glover
Maybe we got bullied by by older kids.
00:46:50.42
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:46:51.05
Dr. Robert Glover
and it was just easier just let everything get pushed to you, you know, pushed through, you know, the social media, pushed through, you know, Netflix, pushed through, you know, just everything.
00:47:02.57
Dr. Robert Glover
Porn gets pushed. You don't even have to cook or go out to eat. You get your food pushed to you nowadays, and so people can live in isolation pretty easily, but what we're also seeing in men and women both, but particularly in men,
00:47:07.67
Gareth Pickering
yep yeah
00:47:19.61
Dr. Robert Glover
is high percentage of men lonely, isolated, depressed, addicted, suicidal, physical ailments, all because they're disconnected and isolated.
00:47:33.70
Dr. Robert Glover
And even before I knew of those kind of statistics, I knew when I got into a men's group, You know, a couple of years into my second marriage. And, you know, that's where I ended up writing No More Mr. Nice Guy when I started work.
00:47:46.98
Dr. Robert Glover
But all of that was because I had men supporting me. And like I said, eight years ago, when I'm in a new marriage, living in a foreign country, I went looking for men again.
00:47:58.17
Dr. Robert Glover
And I've led men's groups for years when I was in private practice in Seattle years ago. I was leading five men's groups a week. Men need that community and connection. i As a marriage therapist, I would tell every man i ever worked with, the best thing you can do for your marriage is have good same-sex friends. And a good marriage is built on the foundation of good guy friends.
00:48:18.99
Dr. Robert Glover
You can't make your woman your sole person. you know, companion, your soul friend, your soul, you know, your soul cooperative reciprocal relationship. You need a hundred of them, not one.
00:48:28.69
Gareth Pickering
For every quadrant. Yeah, exactly.
00:48:31.23
Dr. Robert Glover
So, so what, again, what, you know, social media, the internet porn has done is come, And not only filled that void of men being connected to men, but I think, you know exasperate exasperate, exasperated, not not the right word, exasperated, made it bigger.
00:48:49.05
Gareth Pickering
That's it. Exasperated. Yeah, exasperated.
00:48:51.51
Dr. Robert Glover
Yeah, made it made it bigger.
00:48:51.94
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:48:53.48
Dr. Robert Glover
and And so now here's the thing.
00:48:53.59
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:48:57.63
Dr. Robert Glover
It's easier, for example, to buy a bag of nacho cheese Doritos and a can of Red Bull than it is to go to the store, buy some food and cook myself a meal.
00:49:07.74
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:49:08.98
Dr. Robert Glover
It's easier to look at porn than it is to negotiate a sexual relationship with another human being. It's easier to scroll Instagram and feel like you're learning something and getting inspired and growing than it is to actually go to a five-day retreat with a bunch of men you don't know and get into a pose like this while you're looking into into somebody's eyes and get comfortable feeling uncomfortable or go you know go deep and reveal your deepest self.
00:49:32.72
Gareth Pickering
yep
00:49:35.17
Dr. Robert Glover
That's fucking hard work.
00:49:35.43
Gareth Pickering
yep
00:49:36.95
Dr. Robert Glover
But you know what?
00:49:37.10
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:49:38.26
Dr. Robert Glover
That's the thing that pays off. The good meal you cook is memorable and it sustains you. You know, the the the real sex you have with a real consensual partner that you care about, who cares about you, that's the good sex that's meaningful.
00:49:54.02
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, the the depth of connection with a real live human being that you can look in their eyes and tell them your deepest truth and let them give a shit about you while you give a shit about them.
00:49:54.23
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:50:04.72
Dr. Robert Glover
That's hard work, but that's meaningful and long lasting and fulfilling versus just getting on Instagram and listen to Alex Harmozy or some other person give you their pearls of wisdom for the day.
00:50:16.50
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, maybe there's some value in that. But it's not like getting real vulnerable and and and and letting someone give a shit about you. And I've been talking for a while. I've been working with a New York marketing agency who launched Grant Cardone and Mel Robbins. And they said, we want to make you a star as well.
00:50:36.41
Dr. Robert Glover
And what they've really honed in on is what we're talking about. Men's need to have deep connection, deep bond with other men to have the relationship they want, to have the quality of life that that they want.
00:50:48.89
Dr. Robert Glover
And the problem is, here's the problem I've run into, is if a man's never experienced that depth of connection with other men, didn't have it with dad, got bullied as a kid, never had more than a close friend or two, maybe even them, which is somebody they knew playing video games with, how do you describe to them how good it feels to open up, get vulnerable, get real?
00:51:01.94
Gareth Pickering
Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:13.31
Dr. Robert Glover
And you know, There's no real words that you can say, hey, just just come try it. It'd be like trying to describe a sunset to a person who never has seen.
00:51:22.68
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:51:22.74
Dr. Robert Glover
You just have to experience it. I know, actually, you know, I've been kind of ripping on Instagram and stuff like that. One of the reasons it is so powerful is that through images and video, you really can create a powerful impact.
00:51:39.79
Dr. Robert Glover
And so, for example, we're We're marketing our next Integration Nation conference next January in Plano Carmo in Mexico. We had our first one last year.
00:51:50.84
Dr. Robert Glover
We paid have a videographer come and shoot a lot of it. And he just finished, just today, shooting the video to promote our next one.
00:52:01.60
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:52:01.64
Dr. Robert Glover
and And, you know, I did a voiceover because I thought, I can't i can't even describe it. The voiceover in the video is, How do you describe how fucking good it feels to get vulnerable with another man, let him in, feel held, connected, and loved by him?
00:52:17.71
Dr. Robert Glover
And then i on the voiceover, I say, fuck words. Let me show you. And then there's like two minutes and 20 seconds of video of the men practicing together, laughing together, eating together, hugging each other, you know dancing together, celebrating together.
00:52:35.21
Dr. Robert Glover
And I tell you what, that two minutes and 20 seconds a video just showing men with smiles from ear to ear, laughing, hugging, moving their bodies, jumping.
00:52:47.16
Dr. Robert Glover
That is more powerful than any words could ever translate. And every guy that came to that conference last year said, I only knew everybody here virtually online till I met him in person.
00:52:59.75
Dr. Robert Glover
And I just fell in love with, you know, these guys.
00:53:02.76
Gareth Pickering
Mm-hmm.
00:53:02.74
Dr. Robert Glover
And every guy there, you know, was just beaming about it and posting on the forum about how great it was to be there. and And so there's the problem. There is this secret sauce that when men connect with men, it feels like nothing else. It feels really, really good.
00:53:20.17
Dr. Robert Glover
But if you've never had that experience, it can be challenging to kind of lead a man into environment and say, here this is going to feel really good to you without being able to have words to say why.
00:53:31.53
Dr. Robert Glover
But it's why it feels good is as part of our DNA, as part of our evolutionary programming and wiring to go out and, you know, hunt the beast, slay the beast, bring it back to the tribe, you know,
00:53:48.34
Dr. Robert Glover
dance, celebrate, eat, fuck, you know, have stories to tell. That's in our DNA. and And, you know, until you really go experience it, you can't know just how good it feels to have that depth of connection and community.
00:54:03.41
Dr. Robert Glover
So, you know, that's what I'm doing with all my limitations of trying to build various communities where where men get to go be vulnerable and honest and real with other men and be supported and be known and find out you're not alone. You're not the only one struggling. and You're not bad.
00:54:21.90
Dr. Robert Glover
You're not fucked up. And, you know, letting someone, again, care for you when you haven't even been caring for yourself, that's a big deal.
00:54:32.19
Dr. Robert Glover
after
00:54:33.53
Gareth Pickering
yeah i love it you know there's so much resonance in what you're working on there and what we're creating at the father sons brothers tribe and i you know i really just feel like these networks are interlinked and you know this this very much feels like a reciprocal relationship you know the opportunity for you to speak about men's work that also resonates with our audience and super super powerful the work that you're doing here
00:54:51.39
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, what I love, twenty almost 25 years ago when I went on a book tour for for No More Mr. Nice Guy, did a lot of interviews, you know radio, TV, print.
00:55:05.12
Dr. Robert Glover
And I got asked a lot, Robert, do you see a worldwide men's movement coming? And I said, no, not really, because I don't see any one cause that would drive men together and and maybe even a cause that women would support as well.
00:55:19.67
Dr. Robert Glover
and and and And I think I was right and I was wrong because I don't think there is that one cause. But I do actually see what I am calling a worldwide men's movement happening. And here's how I see it happening because I've got the lens to, you know, I i get to see, you know, a lot of what's going on in the world. There lot of interviews like this, speak at men's programs. know I have my own is that.
00:55:44.15
Dr. Robert Glover
what What I see happening is that a guy will decide, hey, I need to go find a dojo. I want to go do Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So a guy goes and finds ah a dojo and starts doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
00:55:58.01
Dr. Robert Glover
Another guy says, oh, I want to learn how to pick up women. So he goes to a pickup boot camp. Another guy, you know, decides he's got to get sober. And so he goes, finds a 12-step group and maybe finds a stag group, just got a men's 12-step group.
00:56:14.11
Dr. Robert Glover
Another guy's going through a divorce and he decides to join the divorce support group at his church.
00:56:19.16
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:56:20.73
Dr. Robert Glover
All of these are similar in that without realizing it, one guy wanted to learn martial arts. Another guy wanted to learn to pick up women. Another guy wanted to deal with breakup of a marriage. Another guy, you know, wanted to quit drinking.
00:56:34.18
Dr. Robert Glover
Another guy just wanted to go, you know, learn another skill, ah whatever. But they're all finding groups of men, whether it's at the dojo,
00:56:41.85
Gareth Pickering
yes
00:56:43.70
Dr. Robert Glover
and support group. Even the guys going doing the the pickup boot camp, they're hanging out with other guys, going out, you know, hitting on women it with a group of guys. And so what what really we have, we I think every man has a knowing of, is that we're supposed to be a part of a tribe.
00:57:01.08
Dr. Robert Glover
We're supposed to have brothers at our side, brothers in arms.
00:57:03.85
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
00:57:04.93
Dr. Robert Glover
And so without realizing it, when we go start doing the Brazilian jujitsu, we find some brothers. When we go do the dating boot camp, we find some brothers. When we go get yet sober, we find some brothers.
00:57:17.08
Dr. Robert Glover
And then what's happening now with technology and media, I know we've been kind of ripping on it a bit, but the good news is, You know, you go into, you know, you meet a couple of guys in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Maybe you go out afterwards and some guy says, hey, have you watched, you know, the Huberman Lab, you know, podcast? Have you watched Chris Williamson? Have you watched Stephen Bartlett?
00:57:37.12
Dr. Robert Glover
Have you read, you know, this book, you know, by David Data? Have you read this book by Dr. Glover? You know, and all of a sudden. All this cross-polling. Have you heard about this program? Have you heard of Mankind Project? Have you heard of, you know, this project?
00:57:50.08
Dr. Robert Glover
And all of a sudden, men just going to learn Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or how to pick up women. Or all of a sudden, like, you know, I spoke at a ah pickup red pill conference back before covid 250 guys.
00:58:03.05
Dr. Robert Glover
And I said, how many of you read my book? Over half the guys who read my book, right?
00:58:06.64
Gareth Pickering
wow
00:58:06.97
Dr. Robert Glover
And they're they're they're there, you know, red pill dating, you know pickup thing.
00:58:11.41
Gareth Pickering
ah
00:58:11.44
Dr. Robert Glover
and And so no more Mr. Nice Guy. I can't tell you how many people said, Robert, you know, I recommend your book. I've given your book away so many times. It's on my reading list. When I started working with my coach, John Wineland, he said, Robert, your book's on my reading list. What do you want from me? I said, I still got work to do and I need a community.
00:58:26.64
Dr. Robert Glover
So what's happening is through like podcasts like yours and like, i mean, There are hundreds, probably thousands of podcasts out there now communicating good information to men about health, fitness, relationship, passion, entrepreneur.
00:58:43.94
Dr. Robert Glover
i you know And so I get invited on these. On my men's program, I invite, like, for example, I can think of a half a dozen or more other men that run men's programs who I've been on their programs and I've invited them to come speak on you know to my program.
00:59:01.66
Dr. Robert Glover
So it's not like, oh, my program is best, you know, come come join mine.
00:59:02.01
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
00:59:07.04
Dr. Robert Glover
It's like, no, you're if you're in my program, great. if you're in Connor Beaton's program, great. If you're in Garrett's program, great. If you're, you know, you know if you're a John Weiland's program, great. you know Great.
00:59:18.97
Dr. Robert Glover
and And so I really do see this movement in community that who knows, it may get to to the point, you know, that,
00:59:19.14
Gareth Pickering
yes
00:59:28.94
Dr. Robert Glover
kind of like you can't go to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu without hearing about David Data or Dr. Glover. You can't go to dating boot camp without hearing about, you know, the the good or hearing about this podcast.
00:59:35.50
Gareth Pickering
Yes. Yeah.
00:59:40.28
Dr. Robert Glover
I, men are just, just like that.
00:59:40.43
Gareth Pickering
yeah
00:59:42.50
Dr. Robert Glover
You know, if we, if we, if we like something, we want to tell other people about it. When, when I was shopping, no more Mr. Nice guy over 20, 20, 25 years ago, Took three years to find a publisher because publishing companies kept saying, Robert, we like your books. Good book.
00:59:59.53
Dr. Robert Glover
But there's always the but. Same but. Our marketing department says men won't buy a self-help book.
01:00:05.96
Gareth Pickering
Right.
01:00:06.39
Dr. Robert Glover
Okay, that's kind of pre-Amazon, pre-Kindle, pre-Audible. My royalty checks have been over six figures for several years, and they keep getting bigger every year. Right.
01:00:17.74
Dr. Robert Glover
So maybe there's more nice guys out there. Maybe there's more word of mouth. you More and more people say therapists recommended the book to them or they heard me on Chris Williamson or they watch this interview or that podcast or Ryan Taraband or whatever.
01:00:25.08
Gareth Pickering
rightt
01:00:31.43
Dr. Robert Glover
And it's we just live in this perfect storm of really spreading to men We need community. We need connection. Maybe you find it in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Maybe you find it in your pickup boot camp.
01:00:45.89
Dr. Robert Glover
Maybe you find it in a very conscious, authentic, integrated you know men's program. yeah In some ways, it doesn't matter because the information's out there.
01:00:56.60
Dr. Robert Glover
And if we have the tribe of men and we're getting the information, that that just inspires me. I'm optimistic as hell about
01:01:06.33
Gareth Pickering
What I really love about what you've spoken to there is something which I've been super excited about, which is, you know, this linking of networks, which I also touched on a little bit earlier in our conversation, also to me points to a healthy expression of masculinity.
01:01:18.94
Gareth Pickering
Like I'm not competing with you or your work. Like ah like you said, I'm really happy for a man to be in your program if he's working with John or Connor or somebody else.
01:01:22.33
Dr. Robert Glover
Yeah.
01:01:27.22
Gareth Pickering
Like this is more like a we've got more than enough men. I think you said in our last podcast, you know, there's three billion men on the planet.
01:01:33.25
Dr. Robert Glover
Yeah, there's plenty.
01:01:33.67
Gareth Pickering
We're not we're not short of places.
01:01:34.45
Dr. Robert Glover
There's plenty.
01:01:35.31
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
01:01:36.29
Dr. Robert Glover
And you know what? I honestly have not yet. And, you know, I've been doing these interviews. Sometimes I, you know, I average three to five interviews a week.
01:01:46.83
Dr. Robert Glover
and And I've been doing a bunch of them really last year and a half since I, you know, launched Integration Nations. And I have yet to run into any kind of jealousy, envy, guarding of turf.
01:02:04.84
Dr. Robert Glover
Not yet.
01:02:04.92
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
01:02:05.65
Dr. Robert Glover
Not once. Have I run into another men's coach, podcaster, men's program leader that says, oh, you know, no, I don't want you taking guys away from us.
01:02:07.06
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
01:02:17.70
Dr. Robert Glover
Everybody I talk to is, hey, it doesn't matter. We just want men to have community.
01:02:22.73
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
01:02:22.89
Dr. Robert Glover
And
01:02:24.42
Dr. Robert Glover
that, if you think about that, that's pretty amazing because we're so tribal in nature, right? We're so, you know, we we we we we want our our thing.
01:02:29.00
Gareth Pickering
Right.
01:02:32.18
Dr. Robert Glover
um And, you know, a lot of men that, you know, a lot of men are like two or three different programs, you know, because the beauty is when I started my, my personal work 30 something years ago, you know, all the that I knew about was, was kind of the Iron John mytho poetic movement. And, you know, I went out in the woods and beat a drum and had a talking stick and said, ho, and that was all cool.
01:02:57.92
Dr. Robert Glover
But as far as I knew, that was all that existed. Now, Actually, at that time, there was Mankind Project. There was a Sterling Weekends were already in place. But that was kind of, you know, early days of the internet.
01:03:09.62
Dr. Robert Glover
And unless you heard about something word of mouth, you know, how are you going to know about it So I'm just thrilled that now, 30-something years later, you know, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a men's coach, without hitting a men's program, without hitting a retreat.
01:03:26.54
Dr. Robert Glover
it's just It's just prolific. And I love that. You know, I just think it just gives me an optimism that that we men have a path forward.
01:03:37.81
Dr. Robert Glover
And just kind of going back to, well, how do we break these addictions? How do we break an addiction to you know to our screens, to pornography, to video games, to whatever? And just getting into a group of men might not be sufficient to break the addiction because they're pretty strong.
01:03:57.10
Gareth Pickering
Right.
01:03:57.13
Dr. Robert Glover
there' Again, this stuff's designed to hook us. But being in a community of men where you're real, talk about your vulnerabilities, enjoy the company of men,
01:04:09.81
Dr. Robert Glover
you know, it it at least gives us something to compare it to. Would I rather be hanging out with some guys I really like, having an adventure, not knowing what's next, cracking each other up, getting real, crying together, you know, whatever.
01:04:22.18
Dr. Robert Glover
Or do I want to just keep, you know, oh, who posted next today? know, what's next? whats You kind of do put it in a context and I don't know. We may still go a lot further the other way of getting more and more addicted. Again, you know, if Zuckerberg and Google and, and you know, AI have their way,
01:04:41.92
Dr. Robert Glover
you know they They want us all to be in the matrix and you know and and and just you know have all of our attention.
01:04:45.00
Gareth Pickering
Yep.
01:04:49.57
Dr. Robert Glover
and so But I'm optimistic that we're building a good foundation that when men are ready for community, it's there. is there it wasn't there It's it there like it wasn't 30 years ago when I went looking.
01:05:02.94
Gareth Pickering
I've got the saying that I think that men's work is today where yoga and meditation were 30 years ago. Like I think it's coming in as a theme and it's going to become more and more part of the collective consciousness.
01:05:14.27
Gareth Pickering
I want to ask you one quick sort of final question before we part ways here. I want to ask you, i have the sense that we're going to have sort of a split in our humanity where there's going to be people that are going to choose to go deeper and deeper into the matrix that are going to choose to get some sort of chip go in, they're going to choose the AI girlfriend, they're going to fall more and more into that path. And I think there's going to be a ah another path of people that are going to choose to, yeah, choose different calories to nourish themselves with, whether that's food that they've grown themselves, relationships that they've cultivated in person.
01:05:45.10
Gareth Pickering
Yeah, I want to know if you think that that's probably a reasonable thought process of how our humanity is going to potentially have two timelines.
01:05:52.33
Dr. Robert Glover
Maybe. um Honestly, I don't know. um ah umm I'm a terrible prognosticator. I'm terrible at predicting the future.
01:06:04.68
Dr. Robert Glover
I don't know. do Do they have Costco where you live?
01:06:07.60
Gareth Pickering
Yes, that's rebranded as PrySmart, but yeah.
01:06:10.27
Dr. Robert Glover
Yeah, they've got Costco. You in Mexico, I live three blocks from a Costco.
01:06:14.80
Gareth Pickering
Right.
01:06:15.30
Dr. Robert Glover
Here at my mother's house in Sammamish, Washington, Costco headquarters is about four miles that direction. so you know,
01:06:22.68
Gareth Pickering
OK.
01:06:23.62
Dr. Robert Glover
I make the point because I'm not even good ah guessing which line to get in at the Costco checkout line. i could I was like, oh, this was like the best line. I get in the line and then they come and start counting the money.
01:06:35.81
Dr. Robert Glover
Or i get I get behind somebody and oh, that package was broken. They had to send somebody get another one there
01:06:42.94
Gareth Pickering
Uh,
01:06:43.48
Dr. Robert Glover
I can't even pick the right line at Costco or the gas station. So did do to let me predict you know what's coming next, I don't know. you know Is it the singularity?
01:06:55.42
Dr. Robert Glover
Is it Jamie Wheal's predictions about you know where everything's going? um is it Ellen Muska's future future world? Is it Mark Zuckerberg's?
01:07:06.31
Dr. Robert Glover
Is it a ah world, you know, controlled by AI? I don't know. i don't really know, but you know what? There've been countless revolutions, countless transitions in human experience, whether it was Christianity, whether it was, you know, the steam engine, whether it was television, whether it was rock and roll, you know,
01:07:31.06
Dr. Robert Glover
whether it was World Wars, whether it was Elvis Presley, you know, we've had countless things that said this is going to be the end of humanity as we know it.
01:07:41.58
Gareth Pickering
Right.
01:07:42.56
Dr. Robert Glover
I was even just thinking back, you know, actually took the news apps off my phone about two, three weeks ago because I was just, again, just getting on news apps and just stressing me out, just stressing me out.
01:07:56.21
Dr. Robert Glover
And I thought, well, I can't control 99.9 this stuff. So just, even though I like to be informed, I thought I'm just going to take them off, you know. and And while I was at the men's retreat, I did hear something about the U.S. bombing Iran. So I did get on the news and read about that. But haven't listened any more news since then.
01:08:17.80
Dr. Robert Glover
And because, you my fear is, yeah, we're going to hell in the handbasket. But I also had to think back. You know, think about this. In just the last 25 years, a little bit, 25 years plus, we dealt with the fear around Y2K.
01:08:33.72
Dr. Robert Glover
Remember that?
01:08:34.90
Gareth Pickering
yeah we were all going to die all our money was going to disappear
01:08:35.12
Dr. Robert Glover
Y2K.
01:08:37.84
Dr. Robert Glover
It's going to be the end of the world as we know it because, you know, our computer systems weren't built for the change of ah of a new century. Y2K came and went. Not too long after Y2K, you know, U.S., you know, 2001, just year later.
01:08:52.22
Dr. Robert Glover
two thousand and one year later You know, we thought, is this the end of the world as we know it? You know, where are we going from here with, you know, you know the Twin Towers and all the 9-11 stuff?
01:09:04.22
Dr. Robert Glover
I mean, it was scary times. I remember being scared. two thousand and seven 2007, with the subprime mortgage and the meltdowns in economy, you know, the bailout of of the financial systems, and, you know,
01:09:17.05
Dr. Robert Glover
I don't think anybody knew. Was the world economy going to crumble in 2007? I think a lot of smart people thought it was. All right, here we are.
01:09:28.33
Dr. Robert Glover
2020, this strange virus is starting to affect people and it kills them like that. Is it going to destroy the planet? What's happening here? What do we do? 2020 for the next four years.
01:09:41.22
Dr. Robert Glover
I don't think we still figured out quite what to do with that. But when was the last time you worried about COVID?
01:09:44.76
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
01:09:46.100
Dr. Robert Glover
I mean, it's still out there. So, you know, I'm not trying to be Pollyannish of saying that, oh, nothing bad's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen. I'm just not a good prognosticator.
01:09:59.24
Dr. Robert Glover
I won't even try to say that word again. um Prognosticator. Predictor. Like I said, if I can't even pick the line best line at Costco, I'm not going to try to, you know, pick what's happening next.
01:10:11.54
Dr. Robert Glover
What I do know, humans are resilient. Yeah, we can get you know out in the left field about shit.
01:10:22.29
Dr. Robert Glover
we can We can act in against our own best interests. Everybody's falling in love with AI. AI kind of scares me, especially when the president of the United States wants to pass a law that no states can regulate AI for 10 years.
01:10:40.30
Dr. Robert Glover
That really scares me. because if anything needed regulated, it's probably AI, but probably that that toothpaste is out of the tube now. um i So I don't know.
01:10:53.09
Dr. Robert Glover
But what I do know that we're resilient, and in hard times, leaders rise up. And
01:11:03.10
Dr. Robert Glover
honestly, I think if you try to hook somebody up with their their goggles and their headphones for long enough that you know maybe they're sucked into the matrix, I think at some point most people are going to go, this sucks.
01:11:20.10
Dr. Robert Glover
gun kind Kind of kind like the old joke, you know, of ah the the two deadheads at a Grateful Dead concert when they ran out of pot. You know, they ran out.
01:11:27.71
Gareth Pickering
Uh-huh.
01:11:28.79
Dr. Robert Glover
One looks at the other and says, hey, this music sucks. You know, so maybe when people get a break from whatever that drug is, they may go, hey, this sucks. I want something better.
01:11:42.54
Dr. Robert Glover
And the good news is for me, there's something better out there. You know, we've been talking a lot about what's on the internet, what's on our phones. There's a lot of sucky stuff out there. And, you know, people can be easily manipulated with it.
01:11:56.33
Dr. Robert Glover
And there's a lot of good stuff out there. And people can be connected and engaged and and grow through it. So I tend to look at the optimistic side of things. So that's just kind of how I'm wired.
01:12:10.08
Gareth Pickering
Yeah, thank you. I mean, I think I feel the same and it's just why I'm excited to have this conversation and to be doing the work that we're doing because I feel the same like, you know, when people have had enough of their AI girlfriend that they're going to want to cultivate a real relationship and are going to take the time to invest in those more nourishing calories than, you know, just swipe right the easy dopamine hits. And yeah, I just want to say thanks for standing up and being a leader in these times, because I think we do need them. And um I really do see you holding point for an important, an important evolution and in masculinity or in the work around the nice guy stuff, but also the integration nation tribe that you're facilitating around you feels really important.
01:12:48.28
Dr. Robert Glover
and and I'm having fun. So, you know, what else I'm going to be doing? You know, playing golf, watching Fox News. You might as well get out and have a good time and and and to keep working at Connecting Men.
01:12:59.76
Gareth Pickering
Maybe a closing thought for any of the men listening to this, maybe somebody who's never been to a men's group before or how they can connect more deeply with your work. Just, yeah.
01:13:08.66
Dr. Robert Glover
Well, yeah, you know, I'm Always happy to plug what I do. DrGlover.com has my workshops and my my courses and and my coaching and then integrationnation.net is my men's membership program, worldwide virtual program.
01:13:22.38
Dr. Robert Glover
And, um, And again, it it doesn't matter, you know, if you go to Sacred Sons, if you go to, you know, Connor Beaton, if you go to this, there's just so much good stuff out there. And I'd say, you know, get it.
01:13:35.76
Dr. Robert Glover
and I used to tell the men in my dating programs, get out of the house, expand your route, linger in public, talk to the people you meet, catch for interest, walk through open doors, get out.
01:13:44.93
Gareth Pickering
What is the fifth one?
01:13:46.80
Dr. Robert Glover
Walk through open doors.
01:13:46.86
Gareth Pickering
Do those again. Ah, yes.
01:13:48.94
Dr. Robert Glover
So get out of the house, expand your route, linger in public, talk to the people you meet, test for interest.
01:13:50.56
Gareth Pickering
Yes. Yes.
01:13:54.25
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
01:13:55.06
Dr. Robert Glover
That's a skill I teach.
01:13:55.51
Gareth Pickering
Test for interest. Yes.
01:13:56.74
Dr. Robert Glover
Walk through open doors. And that's what makes you a social animal.
01:13:58.26
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
01:13:59.76
Dr. Robert Glover
And I say that miracles happen around people. And unless you got a living room full of people, you got to get the fuck out of the house if you want some miracles, right?
01:14:08.02
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
01:14:08.13
Dr. Robert Glover
I got a gym in my house down in Mexico, but I've come to realize I need to go to the gym because I need to be around people. I need that connection.
01:14:16.26
Gareth Pickering
Mmm.
01:14:17.98
Dr. Robert Glover
Just like me going down to attend this workshop, you know, with with my coach, you know, I could have done anything, but I thought I want to go be around people because miracles happen around people.
01:14:18.24
Gareth Pickering
Yes.
01:14:27.93
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
01:14:29.54
Dr. Robert Glover
So that'd be just, I say, unless you got a room full of people, get the fuck out of the house and go talk to some people, go have an adventure.
01:14:29.84
Gareth Pickering
Yeah.
01:14:38.30
Gareth Pickering
Yeah. Thank you so much, Robert. It's so good to see you again. And I appreciate the work that you're doing and taking the time to hang out again. And yeah, peace on your journey, brother.
01:14:47.72
Dr. Robert Glover
Thank you, Gary. Good to talk to you.
