00:00.00
calltocourage
Hello and welcome to another episode of the call to courage podcast where we have courageous conversations from the heart and yeah has to be hanging out today with dear brother Michael Bates welcome to the show brother.
00:19.74
Mikaal Bates
Thank you my friend good to be here. Gareth.
00:20.57
calltocourage
To have you with us.
00:25.92
calltocourage
Offline before we jumped on this call. We were shooting the breeze about the weird world that we find ourselves in at the moment and you had spoken about your journey of not being silent anymore and feeling like you need to speak up for some stuff I feel like really.
00:38.10
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
00:41.37
calltocourage
Important part of the conversation that I wish we'd been recording So let's jump in right and share share with you in silence on I've I'm key to hear.
00:45.27
Mikaal Bates
Um, I feel like that's always the case now with with my own podcast as soon as the the guest comes on I just hit record and I'm like don't worry we can cut all this and we'll just go because there's always.
00:52.54
calltocourage
Yeah, just just use that.
00:57.81
Mikaal Bates
Like ah I'm ready. Let's let's talk what's up what's up with you. Um, we just start to shoot the shit. But then the stuff comes up and the shit. So here. We are man so here we are yeah man, there's um, I've spent most of my life as a people pleaser. Um I say that both disparagingly and encouragingly. Um, in the sense that I like I like it when people are happy I Want I want everyone to be happy I Don't want people to not like me I don't want you know there's all these patterns in my own behavioral structure that I've spent years and lots of money Analyzing. Um.
01:27.91
calltocourage
I.
01:36.54
Mikaal Bates
But it's come to a place where I've recognized that by trying to make everyone happy I make no one happy most importantly, myself and so there's been this sort of damning and I mean that in both directions this damning up of energy in my system.
01:42.47
calltocourage
And.
01:56.10
Mikaal Bates
Um, that has actually started to metabolize in in certain sort of challenges I would say in my life both psychologically and physiologically because I haven't been telling my truth I have been withholding and pushing down things because I don't want to upset.
02:11.91
calltocourage
I.
02:14.93
Mikaal Bates
Friends family potential clients all these kinds of things. But if I've realized anything lately. It is that it is It is I'll say this in the eye I believe it is my duty to tell my truth unapologetically but with sensitivity. To be able to really understand whether or not my opinions are valid by engaging other people go figure having conversations with people that I don't agree with or that disagree with me in ah in a in a civil manner to figure out What's actually what right now because I don't know if you if you guys out there have noticed. But. People aren't talking to each other anymore. They're screaming at each other. They're yelling at each other.. The culture war is raging in the the political divide the sociological divide. The psychological divide has just continued to grow and grow and grow and I I think there's something very intentionally being done with that. There's a ah, very old technique. In War called Divide and Conquer. It's a very old play and it works works really really well and there's this amazing time right now where I think we have this opportunity to realize that both sides of an argument are actually necessary.
03:11.12
calltocourage
I.
03:24.24
Mikaal Bates
For example for a government to function. You actually need liberals and conservatives and that if you're only putting forward a conservative argument. You're only ever half right? because you need liberal minded people to come up with new ideas to to push the envelope to to look out for the little guy. But you also need people to run things and to be bottom line driven and so a functioning government a functioning democracy or in our case here in the states a constitutional republic requires go figure liberals and and conservatives working together to produce.
03:49.27
calltocourage
You.
04:00.79
Mikaal Bates
That's that through line of balance so that things can actually be done so for me specifically that means talking a bit more aggressively but lovingly about men and men's work and and the work that I do as a coach and the the patterns and programs that I see playing out right now at this very interesting Time. At this sort of apex of postmodernism the apex of feminism the apex of all of these different moments and movements that are coalescing right now in this really powerful way and producing a lot of energy a lot of energy and rather than allow it to divide us I think there's an incredible opportunity.
04:28.10
calltocourage
The.
04:39.20
Mikaal Bates
For it to bring us together.
04:43.40
calltocourage
So much in there I have ah a very strong people pleaser of my own. Um, it's a young version of myself his name's Charlie and he is like my inner pal polite boy and I notice that I've adopted similar strategies.
04:45.00
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah.
04:54.41
Mikaal Bates
Um.
04:59.18
calltocourage
Of believing that I'm seeing things that I don't see as just playing out in the world and have sat on my hands or kept my mouth shut because I was scared that perhaps sharing those would trigger some people and I think you said before this like I'm fucking done with that now I'm done pretending.
05:04.80
Mikaal Bates
Um.
05:11.80
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah.
05:16.90
Mikaal Bates
Now.
05:18.67
calltocourage
Like it's actually not being in service when I'm not being myself like I'm not if I withhold what I'm feeling you know, eventually it will start to manifest as this is in the body.
05:27.11
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yes.
05:32.40
calltocourage
And it doesn't serve anybody like I've I've got a platform here to be able to speak and have authentic conversations and if I don't dive into things that feel genuinely true for me I'm not doing this platform or this creation any any like it's a disservice and that's also not supporting what? Ah what I truly believe in and I'm open to being wrong.
05:38.42
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
05:46.75
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
05:50.31
calltocourage
Also have to honor the path that I've been on and recognize how much privilege and opportunity I've had and I also don't want that to be the thing that's prevents me from showing up and showing up fully and yeah I've I've really enjoyed watching your journey and listening to you.
05:54.40
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
06:01.20
Mikaal Bates
That's right m.
06:06.27
calltocourage
Unpack some of these challenges we have specifically as men in the work that you do as a coach with men where I'd like to start is I think you have an interesting perspective being raised by what you call a second wave feminist. How has that shaped your journey.
06:09.34
Mikaal Bates
Are the.
06:15.30
Mikaal Bates
Yeah I definitely want to speak about that. But before we do I just want to circle back and sort of finish what you just said which was so beautiful and the thing that turned the tide for me Gareth that made me start having these conversations spirit god whatever you want to call it.
06:31.40
calltocourage
Um.
06:34.22
Mikaal Bates
Four years ago told me to start my podcast and I was so scared to offend people that it took me 4 years well it's on episode 10 now right? So it's going, but you know there was a window there where not as many people were podcasting. And I was should I ah, and I didn't do it but what it turned it for me Gareth is realizing that that people pleasing thing where I try to be this for everyone and I contort myself instead of being me is actually a form of lying for me and money is not the root of all evil believe it or not lying.
07:02.42
calltocourage
Are.
07:08.65
Mikaal Bates
And lies are the root of all evil and in the Christian context. The devil is known as the prince of lies for a reason and for me the devil is a euphemism for the parts of me the dark shadow parts of me that are afraid of showing up so it was like this holy shit this this realization that me.
07:10.65
calltocourage
So.
07:28.10
Mikaal Bates
Trying to be nice was actually contorting myself into a pile of lies because I wouldn't say what I actually thought in the moment because I didn't want to offend someone I didn't want to hurt someone's feelings and as a result of that culturally on the cultural level I think that's why. We're in the position we're in right now. So we're having to make up for that and that definitely brings me back to my second -way feminist mom who I love very much and um, her and I are are engaged in this conversation in a really beautiful way. But um. 1 of the themes that I've been working on unpacking are the unintended consequences of feminism because so many of the men that I work with um have swallowed hookline and sinker this idea of patriarchy and I know what people are pointing to right when they when they.
08:02.58
calltocourage
Um.
08:16.75
Mikaal Bates
Ah, patriarchy patriarch. It's like yeah, there's There's been some some raw stuff. There's been some really nasty things that have happened in very recent times perpetrated by men largely but a very small subset of men and patriarchy theory.
08:32.30
calltocourage
Brett.
08:33.54
Mikaal Bates
Is the idea that men as a class have oppressed women as a class. So what I see are an entire class of men particularly young men who have internalized this and truly believe themselves to be in some way the villain. Ah the bad guy. The one who needs to sit down and shut up because the future is female and I think that is a horrible idea both for men and for women because women are going to be dating these guys too right? So it's like every movement has a shadow and but by no means am I saying that feminism wasn't. Ah, right? or just or correct I think like most movements there's always a benefit. There's always a positive There's always something nutritious and contributing that's clear to me but but but we're in this place where the pendulum was way out of balance in one direction. And now it's gone out of balance in the other and it's time to start pulling back from some of these extremities that I don't think are actually serving anyone on either side of the argument men women or anyone who wants to identify in any way that you choose inside of that spectrum as people like to call it. And in order to have a spectrum. You need what 2 points to have a spectrum. So what feels so encouraging like the name of your podcast is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong and so there's this amazing opportunity to realize that.
09:54.30
calltocourage
Polarities right.
10:09.90
Mikaal Bates
Ah, both sides are valid and by coming together. There's opportunity to really? um, yeah to really to really come to to recognize that we are being divided and conquered as I see it. We are being divided and conquered in the culture war. And a lot of things are happening behind the scenes right now that we're not even noticing yet like we were talking about before we got on the show with zoom and talking about the platforms that we use for our calls and these kind of things the latest terms and conditions of Zoom that are. Very questionable as far as their ability to use our likeness and our recordings for their own for their own usages which are vague and mysterious at at best and at worst draconian ah, just.
10:50.41
calltocourage
Are.
11:01.71
Mikaal Bates
Otherworldly and very scary. So I'll pause there I just went all over the place but there we go.
11:09.36
calltocourage
I I've had the this beautiful man I want I want to so go back to that I also want to share that I've been in. Um I've had the privileged opportunity of being in a um, ah leadership container with Jamie Wheel from the flow genome project and he has this amazing tool.
11:22.81
Mikaal Bates
Um, oh heck, yeah, man.
11:24.99
calltocourage
Yet I would recommend it to anybody that wants to uplevel their ability to be a leader. Um I really love his work but 1 of the yeah, he's incredible. He's he shared this tool called the polarities map and that's recognizing that.
11:31.23
Mikaal Bates
Jamie's doing incredible work. But yeah.
11:39.45
calltocourage
You know the the simple problems of our world that are defined as either black or whites have already been solved and we're living in a world at the moment that exists in the polarities and there is like you said there's no right? and there's no wrong about these 2 potential polarities and polarities exist in all of our lives and it could look like. Parenting you know you could have the role of the the strict structured father on the one hand and the empathetic mother on the other hand and we need both of those polarities to be able to navigate and have a a solid well integrated child as a result and this map really points to some of the.
12:09.42
Mikaal Bates
Absolutely absolutely.
12:15.37
calltocourage
The upsides and downsides of these 2 polarities. He's got this polarity map where you say what does too much farthering look like you know, um, lack of empathy um, kid withdrawing and too much mothering on the opposite polarity. You actually articulate exactly what the the fears and desires of each polarity are.
12:17.70
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah.
12:33.70
calltocourage
And also point to early warning signs that you'd be able to see when you're using these 2 polarities as as you navigate laugh and you could use this for anything you know because I've used it in my own life for various things you know like consuming versus creating you know too much time spent consuming. You don't put anything out into the world if you're only putting workout into the world. The other polarity.
12:40.10
Mikaal Bates
Sure.
12:51.55
Mikaal Bates
Absolutely.
12:53.47
calltocourage
You're not growing by consuming So. There's a way to be able to navigate this and yeah I'll put a pin in that. But it's just a really interesting world that we live in at the moment and where people call us into what color are you? What side are you On. It's like fact I'm I'm not any of those I want to be in the middle I Want to recognize the strengths of both. And know that there's there's shadow sides of every polarity and how do we walk this middle path I mean it's it's buddhism in some ways the the middle way. So yeah, that's that.
13:21.51
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, the pairs of opposites that point us to the center and need to be understood and so the binary is actually very necessary and one could argue that the ultimate spiritual path is a Non-b binary path or ah or a superra binary path.
13:27.98
calltocourage
Is it.
13:37.41
Mikaal Bates
Where you've black white of this that this that transcended polarity right? So both sides are valid. But yeah you you need those aspects and you know the the medicinal prescription that I use the frame that I use in my coaching work the frame that I use in my men's work is you know guys come into my.
13:41.19
calltocourage
Transcended polarity.
13:56.61
Mikaal Bates
Into my field and I use the binary go figure because there's always generally an imbalance in one direction or another and in the language that I like to use the guy either has not enough heart or too much heart too much sword or not enough sword and so there's this.
14:13.63
calltocourage
Are.
14:16.58
Mikaal Bates
In 1 of my mentors parlances David Data he speaks about it in 3 stages that the stage one man is sort of the the typical you know it's it's all soared right? It's strength. That's external representations of value versus internal representations of value in stage 2 stage 2 is the. Sensitive new age guy. The prioritization is on sensitivity vulnerability eye gazing. You know those kinds of things stage one is about hitting the gym and being being strong providing protecting producing all these things guess what? both are really valuable.
14:40.75
calltocourage
Um.
14:52.80
Mikaal Bates
Both are really important and if you only have one, you're just imbalanced and that can be a superpower if you're a stockbroker or a bodybuilder right? Or if you're a a meditation teacher or this or that's there's there's positives and negatives as you started out saying right to both aspects. But for me, it's about.
14:56.91
calltocourage
Are.
15:12.58
Mikaal Bates
Learning to recognize in in everyone that there's there's something in you that is out of balance just like there is in me just like there is in the Dalai Lama probably a little less than than you and I but there's something there to be looked at and there's a tool.
15:25.39
calltocourage
Brett.
15:28.22
Mikaal Bates
To understand your life from there and suddenly when you get that when you grock that binary the the way your life has organized itself becomes very obvious and very clear.. There's something incredibly frustrating about that. But also an opportunity for responsibility in a bigger Way. So makes sense. Yeah.
15:47.26
calltocourage
Yeah, yeah for sure I love I love I articulated that and I would love you to perhaps give a high level of how you think we found ourselves in this potential band that we find ourselves in at the moment in your first episode of your podcast you. Talk through the phases of what's happened to us as a society that has got us to a place where where men feel like you know we wear the problem somehow and dingdong. And yeah, maybe you could just give that.
16:08.46
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, and and.
16:20.81
calltocourage
That highlevel description because I thought it was quite an interesting way just to see how this has potentially unfolded in our society and it's It's a good map to start with it.
16:23.77
Mikaal Bates
And.
16:32.60
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, the let me let me answer that question in a single sentence. Um I think there's a lot of different things that have contributed. It's I'm a big student of history and it's been really wild to. Sort of hit 40 and wake up. You know have have logged 4 decades in on the planet and realized that I too just like these these people in history are living within a certain frame and within certain certain paradigms and certain flows of energy and the leftovers of certain things. So I think. A big part of why we are in the current state we're in in the first world specifically and I'll be I'll be hyper specific to the United States is that yeah the industrial revolution produced a new way of of being produced a new way of living suddenly the men. There was a transformation in a transfer from agrarian life um families based on farms people raising and eating and their own food. 9090 to 95% of their own food producing their own food I think today it's like something like 5 % of of americans actually eat and produce their own food. So. It's been a complete switch from an agrarian lifestyle where typically the man was in the house. The man was present in the life of.
17:56.21
Mikaal Bates
Family members and particularly the children and the industrial revolution suddenly took these men away from the farms into Factory jobs into different types of jobs where maybe work was easier to obtain.
17:58.75
calltocourage
Are.
18:13.92
Mikaal Bates
Um, but often a bit more debilitating. Let's say so the psychological affect of men was being taxed working in factories working in mines working in jobs that were let's say deleterious in some way shape or form while at the same time.
18:32.85
Mikaal Bates
The population was starting to shift from more farmland agrarian areas into more cities into more urban centers and so you had people just shifting in a bigger in a bigger way at the same time the the education and. Public education system is in this country which was modeled on the prussian model the prussian military model. It's not a conspiracy theory It's just the truth was designed to produce obedient soldiers not freethinking individuals and so suddenly you had children. Um, leaving the home where they used to be taught within the communities when within the framework of what the communities believed into a ah school and to teachers that were largely female. Um, so you have the man out of the house. You have suddenly the woman. Raising the children more so than before when it was often maybe not an even split but a bit more of an even split. So the man is out of the house. The education of the children is happening mostly from the feminine and so these young men boys are. No longer having their father around to see what he's doing to see what being a man looks like not only that but we started seeing the shift from the the clan essentially to the nuclear family and so in a nuclear family at best you have 1 model for what a man is and 1 model for a woman is if you're lucky.
20:00.26
Mikaal Bates
Some only have one and so in a clan you have all kinds of different representations of what a man can be what a woman can be and how you can yourself become a man and a woman through that process. We've lost many of our rituals and rites of passage and so biologically.
20:01.67
calltocourage
Um, right.
20:08.24
calltocourage
Are.
20:19.31
Mikaal Bates
Women are at an advantage because their transcendence from adolescence into womanhood happens biologically and it happens through their body. They don't have to do anything their menstrual cycle comes for them and it's beautiful and they're transformed and that's not to say that the red tent traditions and all these different beautiful rites of passage. Ah, didn't also happen for women and aren't necessary to help girls become women but the challenge for men is that there's an old saying in men's work that boys cannot become men but by other men. So If you're a single mother and there are so many out there doing the fucking Lord's work right? doing the best that they possibly can. But. I Can no more teach a woman How to be a woman because I don't have a womb and so there's just something about the female experience I won't be able to transfer in the same way that a mother can't tell a young man. How to be a man because she has no idea she has no embodied sense of what it means to actually be a man and so.
21:14.92
calltocourage
Are are.
21:17.27
Mikaal Bates
You have all these different things coalescing you have all these different things happening while the women's movement starts happening feminism starts happening all these different movements starts happening for for a good reason you know for really good Reason. Um, and then you have sort of like the 60 s come in and. And again the the hippies my mom frontline you know my dad too. My Dad's a yoga teacher. So a very different way of looking at the world and again a necessary way of doing that. But you start to add all these different ingredients to the stew and suddenly. The male experience which was very set very fixed for a very long time for better or for worse and for worse has been completely turned on its head without any real large scale Meta acknowledgment of that. And so I would say now in the in the west in the first world you have people that grew up in our generation and then the younger generations growing up where there is an idea about masculinity and you know the tagline for my podcast which is called reasculation is that men are not toxic men are necessary men are the answer. Men are men are as much a part of the human species as women are and if you I get it right? I get it I get that's it's easy to look at history and say men bad men did this men did that and yes some men did but the idea of punishing men who are alive now for what dead men did hundreds of years ago.
22:48.83
Mikaal Bates
Doesn't make sense to me and I also understand the need for things to change. So for me, it's like the United States is the greatest nation that's ever been produced as far as what it's been able to do culturally um, politically the sense of what a constitutional republic is and. Bill of rights and all these things it is remarkable. What was able to be done is a miracle what was able to be done in the years seventy six and yeah, they needed a little more time to to get to slavery right? but that still happened and also slavery happened native american genocide happens. So how do you rectify these 2 things. Brings us back to that that piece of of the binary and and the different polarities so I'll pause there. That's a lot but I mean it's real right? you and I see it in the men that we work with you see the challenge and the struggle of what does he even mean to be a man today.
23:31.33
calltocourage
Thank you for that unpack.
23:42.20
Mikaal Bates
How do you know? You're a man these are 2 of the fundamental questions I always ask in my men's circles and in the beginning of my group programs. It's like are you a man? How do you know?? Why? what? What is it? What does it mean now who's defining that for us and I think a lot of men are defaulting to the women in their lives. Both to their detriment and to the women's to let them tell us who we are and that's not sexy for anyone. It's just not.
24:13.59
calltocourage
It's a really good unpack. Yeah, thank you for for working through that I think a few things are there that um, that are worth underlining I think the idea of initiation. Um I'd like to ask you what you think.
24:27.85
Mikaal Bates
Um, who.
24:30.84
calltocourage
Modern day initiation for men can look like what is what is someone listening to this who's like okay I've got a teenage son who maybe it's a single mom or maybe it's you know, maybe it is parents that are in this in this work which is which looks like leaving every morning at. Seven o'clock to go to work and not being there to to show up and and be that the father figure but what is what is modern day initiation look like for a young man.
25:02.15
calltocourage
A.
25:02.82
Mikaal Bates
Unfortunately, it often looks like joining a gang and it looks like being overrun by the enemies of video games pornography and marijuana. I would say that you know there's an old. What is that old african phrase that everyone throws around if ah you ignore the the children or you ignore the boys they'll burn the village down to feel the warmth. Um I think the 1 thing maybe the largest hidden contributor to.
25:36.56
Mikaal Bates
Shadows of why things are the way things are in our culture right now is that we have forgotten how not just important but absolutely critical. It is for boys to experience some type of adolescent rite of passage some type of initiation into manhood because it just happens. It's very natural like. Very natural for men to join a gang and I think it was Jordan Peterson who said that a parent's job is to make sure they join the right gang and that can be the basketball team or the chess club or you know what have you but boys glom together and they do that we've been doing that for hundreds of thousands of years as a form of protection. And is a form of joining forces because you know you and I ah running our businesses solo are just not nearly as ah, potentiated as say if you and I were to form ah some sort of consortium and say something I'm considering right now which is renting a house and. Getting 5 guys that I'm just I know are on fire for this work or are on fire for some type of work and living together right? So again that clan living where I think one of the failures of the west that is the result of everything we talked about is the.
26:40.39
calltocourage
I have.
26:45.94
Mikaal Bates
The idea of the nuclear family and the lone wolf mentality that all the cowboy films and everything sort of romanticize which is just horseshit to be honest, like yes should a man be strong and able to go out and survive on his own. Yes But if you're constantly living in a state of that. It's just not It's just not conducive to success. It's just not conducive to your success or anyone else's success. We thrive in community humans are communal beings. It's why the worst punishment you can give a human being is what solitary confinement we need each other we need other people and I think men need other people. So. To answer your question. You know a woman or a man or someone who has ah an adolescent child. It's there. It's less rare than it was. There are a couple great organizations that are starting to emerge a friend of mine and I arein talks about trying to start one as well because he has a teenage son that is looking for this but the thing that's. Challenging about this is that um the universal theme of all adolescent rites of passage and Joseph Campbell and and a number of of ah a number of different people. Ah Marchia eliadd is another who did extensive work in this of of studying cross-culturly. Different societies from Oceana to Europe to Africa to Asia to the Americas and there is a universality to those adolescent male rites of passage and it is challenge. It is pain. It is struggle.
28:14.63
calltocourage
Ah.
28:15.19
Mikaal Bates
And what's ultimately behind it is learning to be able as a young man to find comfort in a state of discomfort to recognize that life is pain is suffering is hard is a competition is a challenge.. It's also love and light and beautiful things and all the things right? and that's more of the mother energy you were talking about earlier the unconditional love of someone that loves you no matter what whether you're fat or skinny successful or not Mom's going to love you. But the medicine of dad the conditional love of men is hey.
28:33.78
calltocourage
Are.
28:46.82
Mikaal Bates
You got to see on your report card. What's up I Love you and you're better than that. What happened demanding more asking more and recognizing that the world is going to want more from you your woman your kids are going to need more from you and that I think we've created this almost.
28:53.82
calltocourage
Um.
29:03.28
Mikaal Bates
Neutered castrated world for men right now where we're so starved for anything meaningful, anything powerful anything that gets us up out of bed in the morning because we've been fed again Porn. And Marijuana and drugs and all the you know stupid drugs not medicines but silly drugs like alcohol and ah video games and distractions that are that are the the the empty shell because what is a video game right? It's it's the rite of passage that you should be out there living in your life. And most people's lives are so boring and safe. We've made life so safe that we've we've neutered that and we're really taking it out of young boys and young boys are really suffering as we see in the absolute spike in Autism and Adhd in young boys specifically women too girls too.
29:39.28
calltocourage
Um, yep.
29:57.33
Mikaal Bates
But it's really hitting men and it's because men are not designed to be sat in a chair told what to do and have their spirits broken for 12 years They're just not and so it's a big It's a big thing right? It's a big question so there are organizations out there. Type in adolescent writete a passage look it up. Go online. Do some research. There are some really good organizations and they're going to need help because if you know my my mission on this planet as you know Gareth is to be an accelerator of the evolution of men and masculine consciousness across this planet in our lifetime and so that means. Taking care of these young men because we have a society of boys in adult male bodies like we have a lot of grown men who are psychologically still boys and whose fault is it right? whose fault is it. The women blame the men. The the men blame the women.
30:37.87
calltocourage
Are.
30:48.91
Mikaal Bates
It's very convenient right now. Everyone's blaming the men right now including the men but it's like whose fault is it where did we lose that threat where did that happen.
30:58.58
calltocourage
Yeah, it's that it's my mission too and this is the reason I'm doing this work and the reason that I hold a men circle and the reason that I'm part of a men circle and thank you and I.
31:09.20
Mikaal Bates
I Know it is I Thank you for it man.
31:15.84
calltocourage
And it feels fucking overwhelming. You know, just being like just like ah sort of wish that there was something a bit more clear that that already existed and I know you know we need to be that change and we need to just start modeling it and just and just showing up for it. But ah.
31:15.94
Mikaal Bates
Now.
31:26.82
Mikaal Bates
But that's why that's why a brother like you chose to incarnate in my opinion at this time at this point in this planet to be part of the tip of the spear before the tide turns breaking himself open and and unpacking your heart like you're doing on this podcast like I'm trying to do. Sound the call in a time where it hasn't happened yet where this work I I truly believe this Gareth there is no better and more important work that I could be doing on this planet than the work that I'm doing around men I want to help women help win help men I want to help children help men I want to help.
31:47.67
calltocourage
Um, yeah.
32:05.35
Mikaal Bates
Dolphins and the environment you know Factory farming help men help men and there is no more valuable commodity on this planet I Believe this with every piece of my heart than a conscious man than ah than a man who has integrated both sides of that polarity that you've talked about who's able to bring a fucking heart and a sword.
32:06.25
calltocourage
Rot Help men rut.
32:21.93
calltocourage
Are.
32:25.70
Mikaal Bates
When he needs it who's able to as a very infamous man famously said to take a life and hold a baby in the same day that was Andrew Tate who said that and I and I and I think there's a lot that people again. Um, I'm gonna get shit for saying this There's a lot of there's a lot of things that people should listen to around agitate. There's a lot to throw out too. But that's the thing right? like to be able to listen to the people we disagree with and and actually listen and piece out what's important because it's.
32:48.10
calltocourage
Are.
32:56.77
Mikaal Bates
It's getting to the point where we need everybody in this fight we need people that are able to get beyond themselves get beyond the fights like you mentioned of race and sex and gender and ideology and all these different things that are just distractions to keep us slaves. To keep us slaves to an agenda that is unfolding behind the scenes right now and a lot of different facets scary but this is the time Man. So I'm glad to have you in in the fight with me brother I really am.
33:16.52
calltocourage
This is. Are.
33:27.16
calltocourage
Thank you Bre yeah I appreciate that and you know it confirms the the choices that I've made to to walk this path and my monthly men circle the king circle for me is is a space to be able to support men in that way and i. Also feel the edginess of it being fresh and new and I often reflect that in some ways the more I do it the more it starts to feel like an act of personal hygiene in my men circle every single week.
33:47.70
Mikaal Bates
Um, please.
33:52.69
Mikaal Bates
Oh yeah, it's because it is.
33:56.41
calltocourage
That I drop into is really my chance to just go and move some of this energy and yeah, like a few years ago people would say it was weird to meditate now you know it's become more mainstream and I'm excited about the days when it's like everybody is part of a fucking men circle because of what you said we want to sit in these spaces where we can be witnessed.
34:08.15
Mikaal Bates
Everyone's meditating. Yeah.
34:16.37
calltocourage
Where we're expected to come as ourselves. In fact, the only rule of a men circle is there's no story. It's just genuinely what's alive and you bring your authentic self to that circle and every time I go into one of those. Ah, feel the resistance going in I'm like oh do I Want to do this and every time I leave I'm like thank God I went and there's just so much magic in it and so yeah, I'm looking forward to spreading this message of like you know when someone says they don't speak authentically or haven't connected with a circle of men. It's like dude.
34:28.90
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
34:43.66
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, well literally and and and all indigenous cultures all remaining intact indigenous cultures. It is a part of their daily hygiene. It is a part of what they do and they understand and I think you know even even modern permutations of that like the amish.
34:45.50
calltocourage
You haven't brushed your teeth this morning. That's great.
35:02.44
Mikaal Bates
Understand that I always said you know my my last ditch effort. You know if I if my whole life goes to shit Gareth and everything just goes off the rails I'll show up at an amish village. You know, just with ah a pair of clothes and just be like okay I'm here put me to work put me to work because there's something about that that is so.
35:03.33
calltocourage
Are.
35:15.25
calltocourage
Um, if yeah.
35:21.22
Mikaal Bates
Absolutely critical and and that is missing and my my goal is within within the decade that you can go to any mini mall in America and there will be right next to the Domino's pizza and the yoga studio. They'll be red circle. Which is what I call my my men's circles. There'll be a red circle or whatever it is I don't care if it's my brand or Aubrey Marcus ' brand or whoever's brand. There is a technology as you know contained within this work and when you put men together in a circle and you set that container correctly, you empower them to.
35:43.38
calltocourage
Right.
35:52.90
Mikaal Bates
Hold Confidentiality. You empower them to hold the truth rather than the story like you said I Love the way you put that you teach them to speak from the eye you teach them How to listen. We already know how to do it All. You have to do is make the call set the ground rules and set the circle and them freaking magic happens every single. Time it is like electricity. That's why I call it a technology a light switch if the circuit on the on the the electrical circuit is intact and you flip the switch it turns on every time men's work is exactly like that I've never been in a men's circle and I've been doing this for a long time as I know you have I've never been in a circle where.
36:21.69
calltocourage
Um, gift.
36:30.16
Mikaal Bates
Don't go I'm a little apprehensive I kind of don't want to be there because I know I'm going to have to tell the truth and then fucking magic happens and someone in that room had something that I needed to hear and I had something to say in that room that someone needed to hear and we never would have known it. But it's just this circuitous magic that happens every single time.
36:34.56
calltocourage
Are.
36:49.53
Mikaal Bates
Every single time. Yeah, thank you for holding these circles men. It's critical work. It's the most important work on this planet right now I Truly believe that with every every fiber it might be.
37:02.89
calltocourage
Mm there's there's something about the first few times that blew my mind and and like you said it still blows my mind as well. Which is often being witnessed is the medicine like I go into the circle and I own something that I've never actually spoken out loud before and it's received in a space by men who don't judge me, they just.
37:06.56
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yeah.
37:12.67
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah.
37:21.97
calltocourage
Just lands and I sit down or afterwards I'm like fuck I feel so much lighter having just shared that that's medicine and then to have somebody come up to me and say bro what you shared fucking touched me is like whoa. Not only does it help me but it's also landing with somebody else and it's like.
37:26.56
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
37:35.58
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
37:39.90
calltocourage
Tends to be these themes that just in hearing somebody else share. It's lighter because of the fact that you know that you're not dancing with something on your own and this is the thing we we have many similar problems and similar challenges and it's like sometimes even if I don't get to share. But someone's like ah I'm battling with sex addict. It's like oh I'm not the only one who battled with that or.
37:47.49
Mikaal Bates
That's right, That's right.
37:56.96
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yeah.
37:58.87
calltocourage
Ah, dance with Cannabis or porn or whatever that thing is when someone shares it and you and you hear it. There's this like it's almost lighter just because you're not alone in that space and it's that bringing people together that I think is the technology that you're talking about. Ah.
38:08.37
Mikaal Bates
Yes, what is and that common thread of that I hear in every circle. Oh my god I thought it was just me Gareth is going through that too. But he seems like he's got his life together and he has a podcast and he's got this amazing woman you know and all these things and it's like no no.
38:17.42
calltocourage
Have.
38:27.95
Mikaal Bates
It's all of us and again, that's where because we're so siloed because we're so in the Lone Wolf Mentality men's work to me is it's It's literally if you're not in a men's group. At this point you're just.
38:44.40
Mikaal Bates
It's going to become kind of what psychedelics and burning man has become in the in in in the tech world. It's it's going to be 1 of those things that like how can you not be in a men's world in a men's group because you're just you're just setting yourself at a disadvantage competitively. Emotionally.
38:49.67
calltocourage
Um.
39:03.71
Mikaal Bates
Psychologically, physiologically even because guess what when when you're around other people that are prioritizing themselves in the way that men do in men's circles. There's a lot of guys that are in shape in my men's circle and being around guys who are in shape is contagious and it's some fronting and there's something about.
39:18.97
calltocourage
I have.
39:22.32
Mikaal Bates
For me that I just I feel safer when I'm around men and I don't even have to know them that are in bodies that I can tell they've put time and energy into prioritizing and so to me, it's just like it's such a beautifully selfish thing to be in a men's group Like. Do not understand how much how much clear your relationship is going to be. We haven't even talked about that like how many men turn their their women into their therapist and their moms high I I do I have my whole fucking life I've ruined.
39:55.47
calltocourage
I.
40:00.88
Mikaal Bates
I don't even want to admit how many relationships because I did that to my partner because I grew up with my mom and sourcing so much masculine from my mom and I didn't realize the utility and the absolute necessity of having a band of brothers around me. All of time and all of history we would have had that we all had that our grandparents had that and there's a technology in that of having your boys having your men and you know touch my my. My lovely partner is. 1 of the things that she would get really frustrated with me at the beginning of our relationship is I would bring things to her and she'd be like well have you have you shared that with your boys yet. Why are you bringing this to me and I'm like oh oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm ah I'm a men's work facilitator. And I would still make that mistake because it was so ingrained in the way that I grew up to take my problems to mommy and no, no disrespect to my mom right? like.
40:57.84
calltocourage
Share some of those problems. What are the types of things that you would bring to that you should be bringing to your to men in your life before you bring to your partner. Why what would be some of those.
41:08.56
Mikaal Bates
Um, almost all of them I would say um I would say literally almost all of them like there is just something about bringing your problems to your woman that.
41:14.35
calltocourage
Um.
41:21.55
Mikaal Bates
That cannot help but have so at least some type of depolarizing effect on your relationship now I don't know that that's necessarily universal, but for me specifically um I'll I'll say it in this way and this is the way that I was that my partner and I at the time worked out to be able to do this because. It's not that she wants me to hide things. It's not that she wants me to suppress my feelings. So It's not about that it was about um hey beloved you're probably feeling something and noticing something in me I'm a little frustrated but I want you to know.
41:47.87
calltocourage
Ah.
41:59.66
Mikaal Bates
My boy I talked to my boy Gareth today about it and I brought it to my men's circle the other day and we're on it. So it's a little intense I don't want to bother you with it I know you can feel it because you feel me because you love me because you're connected to me intimately. But once it's sort of.
42:04.34
calltocourage
Your hand.
42:13.65
calltocourage
Um.
42:14.41
Mikaal Bates
Unpacked a bit more I will share with you but just know right now I'm on it. My boys are on it and I know you know Gareth and you trust him so I'm applying the technology of men and men's work correctly and you know if there's something like oh you know Gareth said something to me and it's it's kind of.
42:22.59
calltocourage
Um.
42:27.93
calltocourage
Um.
42:31.60
Mikaal Bates
I Know he's my boy but something about it didn't quite feel right? Would you mind sort of helping me pare through that like that's something that I would bring to my woman that I think would be a healthy challenge. You know that she would be open to to framing I think there's a really interesting thing that well that's a whole of the topic. So I'm gonna I'm gonna hold off on that. But yeah.
42:39.12
calltocourage
Um, rut. Yep.
42:50.83
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah.
42:55.40
calltocourage
I Want to I want to just underline one last piece which was um when I look at the technology and the benefit that comes from being in my men circle which you've spent yeah some time on packing and I love.
42:56.41
Mikaal Bates
Sure sure.
43:05.16
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
43:07.59
calltocourage
It's the same for me as not meditating. It's like when I realize just how much of my life is impacted by my thoughts and my mind and my stories if I don't spend time cleaning that part and checking it just does it. It just puts me behind in some ways like it's almost impossible to catch myself.
43:12.20
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
43:23.78
calltocourage
Falling into a story about scarcity falling into a story about you know my relationship not being what it's supposed to be. You know, like all of those things are cultivated in my mind and my meditation practice is my chance to be able to catch myself and shift that and so yeah to get to this place I'm so excited to.
43:32.55
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
43:41.22
calltocourage
To have it be more well received that? Yeah, you really get to this place of showing up in your authentic self where you don't hide any part of yourself is so fucking liberating and again it sets you up to be a more full and expansive version of you in your work in your relationships in your family for yourself.
43:41.74
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
43:58.52
calltocourage
And yeah, just such ah such a beautiful way that you articulated that like it just puts you behind if you don't do it if you don't prioritize it.
44:03.89
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, people just don't realize it yet. It's like they just don't realize it's missing so entirely in our culture that we don't know that it's missing and so once you once you get it. It's like it's like someone coming up to me and being like Wow I don't know what's going on I feel really lightheaded.
44:16.19
calltocourage
Rot.
44:22.44
Mikaal Bates
Kind of my stomach is really grumbling and like I just I don't feel good like I kind of want to go to sleep I don't have any energy and I'm like have you eaten in the last twelve hours eaten have I eaten no I haven't eaten in the last twelve hours well maybe
44:31.34
calltocourage
Friends.
44:40.40
Mikaal Bates
That's why you're feeling that way and so you know it's It's literally I Love that you mentioned that because I have um I have my morning stack stack for me is an anagram. It's anagram that would yeah well shit I Think that's what that is it stands for ah.
44:41.14
calltocourage
And.
44:55.95
calltocourage
What is that called. It's not yeah acronym.
44:58.42
Mikaal Bates
Start today actively creating your kingdom acronym. Thank you Jesus um, so every day I start I start today actively creating my kingdom kingdom is the name of my men's my my group program that I bring men through so.
45:04.45
calltocourage
Start today? Actively created your kingdom.
45:16.50
Mikaal Bates
It's super critical for me. It's like why on earth would I go out into the world if I haven't meditated I haven't done my breathwork I haven't done my my challenging yogic posture that I do every morning to represent that initiation that masculine initiation and train myself to be. And be able to find a state of comfort in a state of discomfort I go to the gym I train my biceps right to get strong. So why wouldn't I as a man knowing that life is going to challenge me I'm going to total my car like I did three weeks ago I'm going to have challenges in my relationship. Your boss is going to fire you when you need the money. Why on earth wouldn't I create something where I train for that. So part of my daily stack is a discomfort practice I practice states of discomfort so that when the inevitable discomfort of life comes from me I'm ready I'm ready I'm ready.
46:07.13
calltocourage
Um.
46:13.42
Mikaal Bates
And so for my advanced coaching clients. There's ah it's kind of a joke like I send it to them kind of tongue and cheek. But I'm very serious about it and on it. It says you know do you have? Um what what? What practices do you have? do you have a meditation practice. do you have? do you have what's your diet look like do you go to the gym. These kinds of things. Are you depressed if they if they say no to any of those things. It's like well ah, go get a membership gym membership and in three months apply again because it's like I'm kind of feeling depressed I have some challenges in my life. It's like well do you have a movement practice.
46:32.79
calltocourage
And.
46:46.46
calltocourage
Um, right.
46:50.77
Mikaal Bates
You have ah an embodiment practice. No I don't why why? it's like not eating. It's like it's like eating Mcdonald's it's like someone that eats mcdonald's every day and then comes and complains to me that they're overweight and they don't feel good and they're not sleeping well it's like brother.
46:54.48
calltocourage
I Can't help you until you get there? yeah.
47:08.21
Mikaal Bates
I can coach you But what I'm going to be coaching you to do is stop eating shit food and get some grass-fed beef in your life. You know, get some some some phytonutrients get some some clean water and so. I think I love that you that you said that man because for me, it's like if you as a man as a human really? but I think particularly if you want to cultivate the masculine essence in you whichever body you're in male, female identify. However, you want if you want to cultivate that aspect in yourself. You need to have a.
47:23.23
calltocourage
Um.
47:40.80
Mikaal Bates
As I like to call it ah a vigorous daily practice of some kind where you are putting in time religiously into certain things that grow you and your capacity to be present in the world because as a man your attention is your most valuable resource and your ability to be present. As I Define It is your ability to show up to people in circumstances wherever they are from the best of who you are and if you wake up and you flip on your fucking phone and you eat shit food and you're just zoning out and doom scrolling and then you go to work at the Job. You don't really like.
48:08.90
calltocourage
Ah.
48:17.71
Mikaal Bates
And then you come back to your partner that is also kind of your mom and you wonder why? you're not having sex or why she's not attracted to you and I have these guys come to me and it's like I'm depressed. It's like well yeah yeah, of course, you're depressed.
48:25.12
calltocourage
Um.
48:35.17
Mikaal Bates
Life is depressing. You've you've created circumstances in your life that create that and I don't say that it's it's not personal which is what's so beautiful about men's work to me. There's a level that you reach where it's not personal. It's just are you willing to take responsibility for your life or are you willing to continue blaming other people for what's happened to you. And hey man I've worked with some people that have had some heinous circumstances heinous circumstances. But there's there's there's so much here in men's work There's so much here in coaching. There's so much opportunity to be able to as. As Tony Robbins would say change your state change your life and it's right here. It's like just taking a breath together and for 3 seconds in silence.
49:24.92
calltocourage
Thank you brother.
49:27.26
Mikaal Bates
And suddenly the frame is difficult and we just forget that because none of us were taught that and whose fault is that right? Do we need to worry about whose fault it is or can we just get to work so proud to be in this work with you. My friend.
49:41.16
calltocourage
Um, thank you bro? Yeah when we first met we were on a balcony watching the sunset in Costa Rica and ah.
49:49.82
Mikaal Bates
Yes, ah for half man.
49:55.40
calltocourage
There was that I don't know that seems to be just that like recognition when I when I meet somebody that I'm like ah yeah, a dude, there's a fucking another brother and I didn't even know your journey at that stage yet. But 1 of the things you said which I've always anchored in as a practice in my life and we were gonna have ah this podcast then in person but it didn't. Quite pan out that way you said something about results being linked to identity you you you mentioned that as sort of a thread in your work and I'd love to hear how you articulate that.
50:24.35
Mikaal Bates
Will you say a bit more about that in the sense of how you heard me say it or a bit of the context specifically.
50:31.94
calltocourage
We were sitting outside and I asked you what you were busy with and I said I had a podcast and you said you had 1 that was about to at that stage. It hadn't been launched yet so it was in progress and I said what's the theme of your work and you I think you said something to the effect of like our identity shapes our results or our reality or something to that effect and it's. Been a theme in my life like recognizing just how who we think we are determines how we show up which determines the results that we see in our life and I would love to hear your take on it.
51:01.64
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yeah, it's the the I'll share it in this context I'll share my favorite quote of all time and it's my favorite quote because it was the most important one to me. Um, when I was 20 I was it was my my first. Bout of depression at age 20 in university and I snapped out of it literally after I read this line and the line is from a very famous book the prophet by Kalog Lebron and the line is the deeper that sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain. Deeper that sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain and so one of my mentors always says that the thing you didn't get becomes the thing you're meant to give and for me.
51:48.17
calltocourage
Ah.
51:55.21
Mikaal Bates
All the things I didn't get from my dad and my mom and my culture and my friends and my priests and my teachers and we all have that right? all those things have coagulated and come together to create the work that I'm doing in the world because I was not initiated in the way that I needed and my parents still did a bang-ass job. Right? I'm I'm ah I'm a very fortunate person in the way I was raised I Love my parents. They're incredible beings but I'm doing this work for a reason and so my my journey has been recognizing how unbelievably good I am at thinking my way into problems. And thinking my way into challenges at believing my life into the result of my life which has been a life that is beneath what I would want for myself and I use that in the past tense because my current life is very different. My first coach helped me get clear on my definition of Heaven. And my definition of heaven was emerging of my life purpose with my income and now here I am living heaven every day and I still struggle in moments with depression I still struggle in moments with who the fuck do I think I am to be doing this work.
52:56.99
calltocourage
Letter.
53:08.15
Mikaal Bates
To be stepping in front of a group of men I'm just I'm just a man like they are who the fuck do I think I am and so that Reluctant King will so will sneak in and in those moments usually while I'm sitting there pondering if if I'm the one that should do it. The narcissist claims the the throne.
53:10.26
calltocourage
Ah.
53:19.18
calltocourage
Um.
53:26.10
Mikaal Bates
Or someone else will step forward while I'm wondering if it's me and so I I had to step forward and again, that's not to say that I'm the bee's knees right? I think I've got a thread that I that I'm very passionate about obviously and that an understanding of a technology that I see that works but I'm in the process of.
53:47.40
Mikaal Bates
Hopefully getting to a stage in my life and my own development where because I have created a hell on Earth for myself now I can start to create heaven and I've begun doing that and I mean by by that I mean states of mind states of heaven and hell in this life. In this realm in this place and so I've very much been in a process of dying before I die a process of as as the bornigan Christians would say being born again but in this life and so I just got back from burning man where I led. A a men's experience out there. A men's death initiation and ritual beheading which was sort of secretly a a suicide prevention experience because so many men right? So many men are killing themselves in our culture right now and I think that's happening because we have lost.
54:30.80
calltocourage
Um.
54:40.69
Mikaal Bates
The way showers. We've lost the the sacred priests the shamans the medicine men that understand that at certain points in a man's life and adolescence in your early 20 s maybe at 30 definitely in the midlife crisis that I've been in the thick of for the last fricking seven years that
54:58.27
calltocourage
Um, yeah.
54:59.55
Mikaal Bates
The the felt sense of wanting to die is not wrong. It's actually correct. It's just a part of you is supposed to die. Not you. Like there's a part of me right now that is going through a death process I've crashed my car. My relationship is transitioning. There's all kinds of different things happening in my life that is eating me alive and I'm about to step into a vipossit a retreat in six days and I'm scared shitless because you know you should be but.
55:12.36
calltocourage
Right.
55:30.86
Mikaal Bates
I'm I'm very glad that I've had the mentors and the coaching to recognize now I didn't then which is why I suffered for as long as I did with depression because I didn't know how to get out of it I do know but a part of men is supposed to die. Absolutely there's a part of you that is absolutely. Old software running a program that has does not have your best interest in heart. It might have at 1 point it might have been the thing that emerged to protect you when you were 6 but is now the thing that's slowly killing you. And that part of you needs to die needs to be integrated. it needs to be healed and needs to be released it needs to be buried whatever it is but there's some type of process and this is circling back to the rituals to the rites of passage that are a big part of the work that I do. And helping men create rituals for themselves rites a passage for themselves beyond just the adolescent rite of passage where you can ritually decapitate and take the head of your brother so that he can make that long journey from his head down into his heart so that he can start to live a life of courage. Of heart centered nests as you have so beautifully described and and named your podcast after. So yeah, wow.
56:47.50
calltocourage
It's like there's this important reframe that I've been looking at in my life which is the part of me that has perhaps shamed a version of myself that I would call Gareth the player that had. Addiction spiraling intimacy addiction disconnected from myself and as I grew out of that phase of my life. It was fucking painful and then I look back on that stage of my life with a little bit of like resentment and shame of that version of myself and.
57:13.85
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yep.
57:17.69
calltocourage
Reframe for me has actually been like that for me is really the hero of my journey. It's that part of me that was calling for a change that looked like a mess in my world around me but that wound is my gift to share with the world now having spent some time integrating that part of my life like the the.
57:21.40
Mikaal Bates
It has.
57:31.96
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
57:36.17
calltocourage
The journey of the healla inherently has the wounded healer as part of it like you can't walk the path and share what it's like to have overcome sex addiction until you've actually been a sex addict and managed to penetrate through it and so yeah, it's it's super resonant. What? you? what? you're saying. And for anybody listening that feels like they're in a fucking dark place your quotes just say it again. The depth of the sorrow is your capacity to hold joy. Yeah, right.
57:58.64
Mikaal Bates
The the deeper that sorrow carves into your being so the deeper you go on one side of the binary. The more joy you can contain so excavating one side of the binary actually allows you and prepares you to do the exact same thing in a slightly different way. On the other side of that equation. So I think you know as as my meta analysis of humanity right now I think we're at the at a very interesting place of learning how devilish we can be.
58:31.93
calltocourage
And.
58:32.62
Mikaal Bates
As a process of remembering and learning how to create our angelic natures and so there's there's been a lot of hell I mean look at the Twentieth century man look at look at the and we've had we've had absolute genocide on the left and the right. In very recent time hundreds of millions of people that have died as a result of communism or left-leaning ideologies. We've had hundreds of millions of people die as a result of fascism and right-leaning ideologies and we have already been through that.
58:53.00
calltocourage
Um I have.
59:09.66
Mikaal Bates
We do not need to do that again and those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it so we need to remember what we've been through and and not go there again because we're better than that. We're better than we've already done it. It's already happened. We've we are the sex addict who has healed themself.
59:11.65
calltocourage
I.
59:28.57
Mikaal Bates
And come through the other side you don't need to go through that again, you've done it. You know the answer you know the medicine. So I truly believe right now that it is up to good men that are willing to tell the truth and then hold the line for what they believe and not be sucked into arguing or or sucked into that are something wrong with arguing.
59:30.18
calltocourage
Nothing.
59:36.91
calltocourage
Um.
59:48.50
Mikaal Bates
With with a form of arguing that is I am right? you are wrong that is othering right? and it's tough because human beings are tribal by nature. It's It's how we survived for as long as we did if if suddenly you know we're all down in our farming community and you look up on the Hill and there's a bunch of blue face painted Warriors standing there. You're.
59:54.47
calltocourage
Um, and brought 5
01:00:08.13
Mikaal Bates
Don't look like you. You're probably about to die and so it's very normal to to be afraid of people that don't look like you but we live in a very different time right now and our technology is being used to polarize us now in a way that's very frustrating for me Because. Have this incredible technology that brings us together and is also being weaponized to separate us and we know that and so we need to continue having these kinds of conversations educating ourselves recognizing that there's ah, a good like feminism right? circling back to the beginning. There's a bright side and a dark side to everything to me to you. To all of us. No one is beyond that and no one is beyond the pale and if you feel like you don't want to be here anymore. Welcome Welcome to the team. There's a part of you that doesn't need to be here anymore and if you can release and identify that part in you.
01:00:54.38
calltocourage
This is missing.
01:01:01.92
Mikaal Bates
Your life will transform and you'll be so grateful to be here. But you know if you die before you die when you die you will not die. It's a very old saying it was in the drone show at burning man the sir and hilarious. It's also an inscription from a monastery in Mount Athos
01:01:12.49
calltocourage
Okay.
01:01:20.80
Mikaal Bates
Um, Pathani Supreme Beanis Denapeanis Oan Pathhanis If you die before you die, you won't die when you die? Yeah yeah, so it's it's important. It's important as men that we in Mens Circle Confront these things bring it to our boys because we need us here.
01:01:28.13
calltocourage
Um.
01:01:39.12
Mikaal Bates
All of us.
01:01:40.20
calltocourage
Let's let's take ah a quick change of track I'd love to hear your reflection a lot of my work recently has been around relationship and I'd love to hear how relationship has been a vehicle for your for your personal growth on your path and yeah.
01:01:45.36
Mikaal Bates
Let's do it.
01:01:56.55
calltocourage
Chance to share. What's what's allowed for you around that and.
01:01:58.20
Mikaal Bates
Yeah man yeah relationships some relationships are a mirror is no greater mirror than the feminine I think in a lot of ways. I Think that the highest degree of embarrassment that I feel in my life is probably in the frame of relationships I think I romantic relationships that is relationships with the feminine. There's nowhere I lose myself more and play small more than with the feminine. Specifically with my partner historically and that's not to say that my relationships haven't been remarkable and special because they have been. They are the feminine is That's why we're here. So Why we build buildings. That's why we do all the things that we do. Um, yeah I'm in.. Ah yeah, just an interesting, an interesting place of reflection and learning a lot of new things really really Fast. So as ah as my beloved touch would say there's a lot in the oven. Right now there's a lot that's still cooking. There's a lot that's processing and figuring itself out in new ways. But I will say that there's a really big part of me. It's well, it's why my podcast again is called reasculation right? There's a big part of me that learned to abdicate my power.
01:03:30.76
Mikaal Bates
In the presence of the feminine for better or for worse and well in in in my specific case I would say largely for worse in the sense that it's very easy for me to lose my sense of. Drive Centeredness direction clarity when my partner's around so there's a big.. There's been a big challenge in that and a big piece of of me that I'm sort of waking up to the absence of that somehow historically would. Sort of check out sometimes in relationship I know I'm being a bit vague again. These things are still in the oven. But um, yeah, yeah I'll pause there.
01:04:25.72
Mikaal Bates
Oh Gareth I lost your audio.
01:04:33.41
calltocourage
I I'm be sorry. It's definitely been a ah theme in my life that I have definitely allocated the most amount of laughs Love force and attention to which is chasing trying to please look after let go of.
01:04:34.21
Mikaal Bates
There You are yeah.
01:04:44.92
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah.
01:04:51.97
calltocourage
Find the next one in terms of you know my my quest to connect with women and it's more recently just as I've perhaps matured a little but I've really got to this place of recognizing that some of my most important lessons have come from my romantic partners like you don't get the opportunity to have ah a stronger mirror than.
01:04:54.33
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:05:11.32
calltocourage
Being that you choose to live with and do life with for a while and then also include the intimacy include yeah all the magic that comes from a relationship only to have it bring up all of your stuff And yeah I know a part of me that was in this place of like ah you know this is too difficult I'm just going to let this one go and I'll I'll find the next one.
01:05:29.60
Mikaal Bates
That.
01:05:30.55
calltocourage
Without recognizing that the continual thread of what was happening in those connections was always me like some sense that the next partner that I would find would somehow be easier but in different ways I would just see this similar themes coming up again. And yeah I think the transformational opportunity for.
01:05:42.99
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
01:05:49.30
calltocourage
Me has been the commitment to make it work. No matter what comes up because what comes up tends to feel fucking painful and the easy parts is falling in love and the new relationship energy of the first few months the hard part is being there when everything feels like it's burning and how do you.
01:05:55.72
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:05.46
Mikaal Bates
Yes.
01:06:07.17
calltocourage
Both hold your presence and hold space and not rescue and it's like yeah feels like juggling burning chain Sos some days as you as you just sit in in the relationship once day and is that I've been in sometimes and just wondered how you how to make it work you know? And yeah.
01:06:18.18
Mikaal Bates
Well said well said.
01:06:26.65
calltocourage
And and it's messy and I think yeah, it's definitely been super powerful for me and um and I'm so grateful because I don't think despite having spent a lot of time in retreats and on various different personal development Journeys relationships have been on me a.
01:06:39.30
Mikaal Bates
I Love you? Yeah, but.
01:06:44.36
calltocourage
No, that's it I'll just kind of say that too.
01:06:45.62
Mikaal Bates
I Love hearing you say that piece about I mean that's why marriage emerged I think and the the brilliance of marriage in the sense of it is a binding contract so you can't run so you have to stay and figure it out and I love hearing that you and.
01:07:01.82
calltocourage
Um, rot.
01:07:04.60
Mikaal Bates
Your amazing partner Armmentza have that that in that frame in in the relationship where it's like we don't run I think we're in this no matter what and I will say that I feel like I see a lot of and this is you know going back to the binary right? I think a lot of.
01:07:12.58
calltocourage
And.
01:07:23.87
Mikaal Bates
Our friends in the more liberal community in the in the more. Yeah this to space and all these kind of things. It's very convenient to just run to another lover when Lover a you have an issue with or Lover B and you now issue with it's just well kind of. This is a little uncomfortable. So Let me go let me go find someone else as though it's supposed to always be love and sunshine and it's like now like the the the fights you know the the experience the history that touch and I my my beloved have.
01:07:49.40
calltocourage
Left.
01:08:02.50
Mikaal Bates
Have had and accrued over the time we've spent together is really what's made the relationship special and juicy and worth fighting for and worth holding onto. And yeah, you can jump you can jump out and go look for another but as ah. Main man. Mr. David data always used to say to us. Sometimes it's correct to break up, especially if there's any kind of abuse right? You never stay with abuse. But if you're breaking up because things are hard and you don't want to deal with it. What'll happen is you'll be single for a few months maybe 6 and you meet someone and you start dating and then you get to that 2 year part in the relationship and suddenly here's the same issue coming right back around and so you can run but you can't hide like your relationship is so powerful if there's anything.
01:08:48.61
calltocourage
Rut rut.
01:08:57.20
Mikaal Bates
Think we can bring forward in this It's just the value of relationship of the 2 wo-bodied practice of having a mirror across from you that can reflect you back to you as a means of bringing you home as a means of bringing you back to yourself. Bringing both of you back to yourself as sovereign beings in the third entity that you create between the 2 of you which is the relationship again I think it was Kologo Braun who said fill each other's cup but drink not from the same cup and I love that I love that.
01:09:13.25
calltocourage
Um.
01:09:19.29
calltocourage
Rut.
01:09:28.88
Mikaal Bates
It's like 2 sovereign beings creating a yeah yeah yeah, and that to me is has been my core challenge in relationship I I lose that sovereignty it's almost like it happens. It's like I I start sleepwalking in a certain way. There's a part of me that still has to be hyper vigilant. It's changing.
01:09:30.43
calltocourage
Maintaining sovereignty all right.
01:09:46.18
Mikaal Bates
It's really changing right now in a big way. But it's a bit of my own shadow in relationship that has come to light in recent years of just like wow like there is a part of me that wants to give away my sovereignty as though it's what I'm supposed to do. It's like. And maybe it's a part of this age and it's why I'm doing the work that I do and it's why I work with a lot of the men that I work with there's a part of me that wants to just be like here are my balls here. They are what what would you like to do with them. Mistress. Ah, and that's yeah, it's just I think there are contexts where that would be.
01:10:03.10
calltocourage
Um.
01:10:19.19
calltocourage
Um I.
01:10:21.94
Mikaal Bates
Sexy and appropriate but not as a general rule of thumb. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:10:29.96
calltocourage
But resonant for me because I think that's the people peasy pleasing part the strategy that I learned as a young boy was the more I could show up and be in service and be polite. The more love I got and so I get into a relationship and I want to be loved and I want to make it work so I continually serve all the time.
01:10:33.17
Mikaal Bates
For sure.
01:10:42.70
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah.
01:10:47.99
calltocourage
And it's fucking depolarizing because your partner is like oh you know stand for something you know, hold hold a boundary hold a line and that's I think that's definitely that that truth for me that resonates. Ah.
01:10:56.80
Mikaal Bates
I have a question for you about this because obviously you are partnered with 1 badass woman who does a lot of there's no other way to say it sort of masculine space holding but the 2 of you are sort of you know too again I think why. My partner and I were drawn to you guys you you both like us are sort of in the limelight of this is the work that we do a lot of people look up to us as a couple and and in in the relational field. How has that been for you guys sort of being in the in the in the forefront and the limelight of that and then. Being authentic in your own relationship and still being able to be humans that have issues and challenges and what has that been like for you to be in relationship with aramenta and the work that she does and the work that you do and just being. The the visible power couple that you guys just are.
01:11:56.76
calltocourage
You know it's been firstly fucking magical. Um I'm so grateful every single day for this being. That's that's said yes to walk this laugh journey with me. Um I'm really grateful for her experience and having. Been in the sacred sexuality field for the time that she has because a lot of the practices that I've picked up inside Esther ah fucking wish I'd done this shit in school I wish we had learned some of the stuff we learned in esther inside school and that's that's really what lights me up. Yeah, like you know, just the ability to be able to own your desires and to have an.
01:12:20.39
Mikaal Bates
Brother. It should be taught when we're like 12 right? yeah.
01:12:31.25
calltocourage
Ah, grown-up conversation around intimacy like there's more and more science proving that the value of our relationships determines the value of our life and so if you want to have a meaningful life. You need to have meaningful relationships yet we learn algebra and science and the shape of the earth and all these important things. But now nowhere Do we. Have this conversation of how to relate with one another and so I think what I've picked up from esther has been many of those tools and having mentor being an esther lead facilitator has meant I've really got to can date the master and in many ways it's shaped how we've related together.
01:12:53.11
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah, myself as well.
01:13:05.39
calltocourage
At the same time It's also bought some of the work that I've been doing which is recognizing I have this tool which sounds surprisingly like yours. But it's called the inner kingdom and it's a ah journey to recognize the various elements or archetypes that exist inside ourselves and recognize that at different times in our experience. Different versions of us grab the mic and they are the ones that run the story or run the show and these these versions of ourselves have got superpowers and sometimes they have shadows or they have wounds and where Charlie in a pala boy is sometimes showing up maybe in my relationship.
01:13:37.35
Mikaal Bates
Soon.
01:13:42.33
calltocourage
Is not serving at that moment. You know, especially like in the bedroom where I'm continually like trying to caretake and be with araments and she needs me to be in my dark masculine a space I've never really managed to connect to that Well is my ability to be able to move into these spaces and so the question about how do we navigate it.
01:13:51.58
Mikaal Bates
For her.
01:13:59.84
calltocourage
Ready for us both to recognize that there's not just Gareth and araminta in a partnership. But really, there's my inner kingdom of all my various weird exciting. Interesting fucked up wounded characters and mintor with hers and using this tool as a framework to just see who it is that's showing up in every single moment. And speaking to that because this tool makes it super easy to not have to say listen you've been an asshole today I can say to her listen Alejandro's art which is her warrior and he can be a little immature at times she doesn't have a strong masculine model in her life so she has this strong warrior who comes out from time to time.
01:14:33.26
Mikaal Bates
Who.
01:14:37.52
calltocourage
And our journey has been recognizing that. There's a part of me I think my masculine is quite integrated. My feminine is perhaps a little bit young and I need to just make sure that I can hold a space to mentor arament as masculine and she is helping me mature my feminine who can be a little bit romantic and can sometimes fall off the perch When. Ah, get an offer from a younger or good looking Woman. We've used this way to navigate our relationship that has really supported us and from time to Time. There's various parts of us that come Together. We've building a house at the moment we've used that analogy of like our kings are like we're doing this thing we're making these decisions. We've got a strategy together.
01:15:01.69
Mikaal Bates
Yeah.
01:15:14.25
Mikaal Bates
The the.
01:15:16.35
calltocourage
But we don't always want to be in our kings Sometimes we need to create that polarity and be in different polarities and using that tool has been has been really powerful. But yeah I think it has a lot to do with I would say the work that both of us have done. We came together having both walked a path of self-reflection. And yeah we came together with a solid base and we've.
01:15:22.29
Mikaal Bates
Good.
01:15:35.26
calltocourage
We've built on that. Thank you.
01:15:38.78
Mikaal Bates
Um, beautiful said beautifully said there.
01:15:45.60
calltocourage
How you feelinging going into of your passenger you have you said for person before share with somebody may not know what the person is share what that is.
01:15:54.87
Mikaal Bates
I've not sat with it before full transparency some of my coaches and my my partner helped me sort of create ah a bit of a fear inventory this year some things that I talk about a lot and was reflected to me back that some people were kind of tired of hearing about it. You know like tired of hearing about me being scared of something or and then not doing it and so I made a list of the.
01:16:20.26
calltocourage
Ah, what were this.
01:16:24.44
calltocourage
Okay.
01:16:27.11
Mikaal Bates
3 things that I was the most afraid of doing at the top of the list was being an open open open water like the open ocean like just floating in the open ocean like out away away from shore like this is core fear there you know Dr Jung would have a lot to say about that. Um.
01:16:38.91
calltocourage
Are.
01:16:44.92
Mikaal Bates
But then number two was very closely followed by ah, a fear of sharks because I read jaws the novel when I was a kid you know just thing so I hired ah, ah, an outfit out of Jupiter Florida about a month ago and they took me out about three miles out right? to where the shelf drops and I got. Got in the boat and they chummed the water and the sharks came and I did some reiving with sharks in the open ocean and it was ah, really scary as an idea and then when I got there. It wasn't.
01:17:10.59
calltocourage
Beautiful.
01:17:16.49
Mikaal Bates
But number 3 on the list to answer your question was this pipassan retreat that I've been talking about doing since about 2015 2016 of vipassana is a this this form of vipassana is a 10 day silence meditation retreat where I think you meditate for about. I hope I don't get this wrong I don't actually know because I haven't done it yet. But I think 10 or 12 hours a day for ten days straight thank you yeah in silence with no eye contact. So um.
01:17:37.17
calltocourage
11 it's 11 hours a day with an hour of discourse yet.
01:17:50.55
Mikaal Bates
I'm both very nervous about it and also I've had this weird fantasy all of my life of going to prison and let me let me be clear that the fantasy isn't about doing something or something that I've done to go to prison. It's just that being locked in a room. Where I'm not able to distract myself I'm not able to do any of the things that I might do out in the world instead of the thing I know I need to do which is to get right with my inner self and with god so in a way I'm I'm doing that thing and I'm stepping into that in six days and in Massachusetts it's good. Beautiful time of year autumn to be up there I'm very excited about it. I'm nervous but I'm also yeah I'm ready I'm ready I've started my my training I've been doing hour hou hour hou hour sits every day just to sort of get up to up from my normal half hour just to get to. Ah, bit more resistance training in that and sounds like you've you've done it before? yeah.
01:18:49.82
calltocourage
Um, I've only sat once and I sat pretty early on in my meditation journey I had only just started meditating and the same thing when someone shared what it was. There was a part of me that was like oh that's bullshit who would want to do that.
01:18:53.00
Mikaal Bates
Cut.
01:19:04.93
calltocourage
And I realized that pretty quickly that resistance was probably they had something underneath that and so yeah I would say I fucking muscled my way through it. Um, because I didn't feel comfortable but most of the time. Um I went in there and thinking. Okay, this will be great I will.
01:19:08.86
Mikaal Bates
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:19:23.40
calltocourage
I'll use this as an opportunity to think of my next business idea and um, all these plans that I'm going to come up with and basically what happened was pretty much for I would say 8 out of the 10 days I Just went back and relived every sexual encounter that I'd ever had I Just went back and relived it in graphic detail. Would catch myself bring myself back using their practice and then start again and I was like what the fuck is going on here and the recognition that I had on reflection somewhere near day. 10 was some sense of like. As you start to track your storys as nothing Else. You can do You can't distract yourself with anything else your egos starting to dissolve and it's throwing everything that it can at you and it uses the stuff that you've been running from the most and it was both painful. Frustrating.
01:19:59.91
Mikaal Bates
There.
01:20:13.88
calltocourage
And super fucking liberating to be like wow this has been driving me for a very long time and um, yeah, there was just this this sense somewhere around day day 10 which is like I got like this fucking body bliss where I just felt like I just dissolved into myself.
01:20:18.20
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yeah.
01:20:31.61
calltocourage
Was some silence that was just something I had never experienced before and um, yeah and I was still glad to leave there and I haven't yet been back. But um I can feel it calling me again I'm I'm ready to do it and I just there's there's much magic in there and.
01:20:32.16
Mikaal Bates
Um.
01:20:50.83
Mikaal Bates
Um, now.
01:20:50.87
calltocourage
Yeah, it's a beautiful journey and yeah, you're gonna check in with with all these parts of yourself. You know I also have a strong rebel that was just like you don't have to be I get the fuck out. You're a grownup. You don't have to come when they ring a bell like all of this stuff. There was all these things coming up and then recognizing that I had chosen to be there and.
01:21:06.11
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, yeah, it's thanks Mom. It's gonna be very interesting I think um, you know is one of my my meditation teachers put it in your.
01:21:09.30
calltocourage
And so our way through it. So yeah, cute us and saying yes to that brother.
01:21:21.72
Mikaal Bates
The measure of progress on your path of meditation is the quality of the distractions that arise and so I'm at the point like today like I'm 35 minutes in and I'm I'm I'm doing working on doing a motionless.
01:21:26.81
calltocourage
I have.
01:21:35.26
Mikaal Bates
Sit so no itching no scratching no fidgeting, no adjusting my seat or my back just motionless for an hour um and those are the moments where my best fucking ideas come oh my god the next program that I'm going to run. Ah.
01:21:37.42
calltocourage
Yep, yet, you man are hip.
01:21:55.40
Mikaal Bates
Thing and I'm like I'll I'll catch myself like I'll start to move to reach for my journal or my phone to make the note and like and then the fear of oh I'm gonna lose it I'm gonna lose it. You're gonna lose it. You're not goingnna remember it when you're Done. You got to write it Down. You got to write it down. So Yeah I'm a. Um, very excited to get in there meditation and I have a bit of a reckoning to it's like coming back to an old friend I I really abandoned meditation for a long time I felt very betrayed by it as I mentioned I Grew up my dad was a yoga teacher and ah.
01:22:32.32
Mikaal Bates
Very strong in yoandda's lineage in self-realization fellowship. He trained with Yogibajan and Bikram like the o ges in l a and like the 70 s when he was there and so um and my dad is not a.
01:22:38.64
calltocourage
Wow.
01:22:45.91
Mikaal Bates
And accredited yoga teacher. He's never had an agradation because he went through training before there was any accredation system in this country at all. So he's just this old school g who does it, you know still teaches these these cats at the University Of Kentucky doing his thing but um.
01:22:53.82
calltocourage
Okay.
01:23:04.16
Mikaal Bates
And I don't I don't blame my dad I don't blame anyone again. I'm at a place in my life of radical responsibility where I understand that a part of me took in the teaching in a certain way where I was very pacifistic and I was very much I Really believed that. Um. When I got angry I should meditate when I got upset I should meditate when I when someone fucked with me at school or in basketball practice. All is well all is well all is well all is well bless them bless them. You know, maybe.
01:23:37.80
calltocourage
Are.
01:23:41.63
Mikaal Bates
May they be at Peace may they be peaceful May they be peaceful and so what I learned to do is to meditate instead of having a fucking boundary and instead of standing up for myself I would meditate and so again, no one's fault. But.
01:23:47.43
calltocourage
Um.
01:23:51.32
calltocourage
Are.
01:23:58.75
Mikaal Bates
As I went through my own transformation which has become my work which is which was the recognition of I have all heart and no sword and I'm a big strong masculine Six foot 5 physically jacked guy who let every. Woman specifically but also men just walk all over me just do whatever people pleasing. What do you need me to do it made me a great actor when I was in ah my earlier life in that sense I could chameleon into almost anything but I could chameleon into almost anything and I had no frame of my own and so I had a very.
01:24:20.46
calltocourage
The half.
01:24:33.54
calltocourage
Um, well.
01:24:34.88
Mikaal Bates
A brasive reckoning and confrontation with meditation of like fuck you and so there is a point in my late thirty s where I abandoned meditation completely I said fuck you I don't need you anymore. I'm gonna make money I'm gonna work on my business and I did it was hard. And I built a business and I and I started to work on the necessity of the sword aspect and the part of me that felt very much like I can't make money in the world I don't have any energy or attention because my third chakra was completely closed and blocked and pacified. And a lot of ways emasculated. But the thing that's interesting about emasculation I've discovered and having a podcast called reasculation is that for a man. The only one that can emasculate you is you people can do things say things to you but how you respond.
01:25:22.60
calltocourage
Are.
01:25:29.15
Mikaal Bates
To Whatever is said or done is the thing that results in emasculation or something else. So I'm very long story less long like it's a theme for me. Um I'm very happy to be coming back to meditation now and in a big way and. Reclaiming a lost friend in a way feels like an old childhood friend that we had a major falling out and now there's something yeah waiting for me on the other side of this So looking forward to it.
01:26:04.20
calltocourage
Brother I Hope you have a beautiful reuniting with ah an ancient and powerful practice I Know it's gonna be fucking epic for you and um, yeah, that feels like a good place to to put a pin in this one and yeah, thank you for not only for being born and.
01:26:09.28
Mikaal Bates
Thank you.
01:26:20.60
calltocourage
For the being that you are but for how you standing in your power andsuring. Authentically I feel us on the same mission and a similar mission rather and I'm really grateful that you are creating the work that you're doing that you're serving men in the way that you are and yeah at the basis of that is the journey of of.
01:26:26.79
Mikaal Bates
Most stop the.
01:26:40.47
calltocourage
Personal development that you've taken on yourself and just want to say? Thank you for that brother.
01:26:44.65
Mikaal Bates
Right back at you gary right? back. Got you pleasure to be in the work with you man and thank you for your time and for having me on your show. It's been an absolute blast. Love it.
01:26:55.99
calltocourage
Where can people get hold of you to catch your podcast and connect with you if they want to journey more deeply with you brother.
01:27:02.43
Mikaal Bates
Yeah, so you can my podcast is called reasculation. It's on Spotify and Apple Apple podcasts my website is where you can find my work. It's ww ww ww dot michaelbaes dot com but I my hippie mom spelled my name a little uniquely which I love just means usually gets mispronounced once or twice on the front end but that is so that's wwwdot m I k a a l michael m I k a a l bates b is in boy a t e s dot com. So yeah Michael Bates Dot Com
01:27:40.88
calltocourage
Thank you brother. We'll also put all your links directly in the show notes as well as in the description of this in the in the Youtube version and yeah, much love sending you and your beloved all the all the live and good vibes at the moment my bro.
01:27:45.45
Mikaal Bates
Beautiful.
01:27:53.35
Mikaal Bates
Um, and to you Yes, please give Aramenta a big hug for me.
01:28:00.89
calltocourage
Till next time break cha.
01:28:02.78
Mikaal Bates
Till next time.
