00:00.75
calltocourage
My guest today is Michael Skye Michael is a brother who came into my world recently he seems to be serving a similar mission to me and um. Despite being originally from North America finds himself in my homeland in Kenya Michael welcome to the show. How did you end up in Kenya.
00:23.13
Michael
A Gareth good to be with you. Yeah, it's a bit of a long story but I was in Austin Texas where I'd made my home for about 14 years by that point and I had a great life there. I developed a body of transformational leadership work. Um, yeah I loved Austin I felt like was the best city in the us but I felt like there was a bit of a compromise with the work I was doing because I really had a passion to work with young men. But I was working with more more middle-aged adults because I didn't I didn't figure that the younger man could pay for it and so there was kind of just like this this sense of you know, frustration dissatisfaction and also I was you know spending a lot of time in an office.
01:09.30
calltocourage
I.
01:20.19
Michael
Staring at a computer screen and I really wanted to be working with people I come most alive when I'm you know leading my live intense group events and I had a yeah I had a friend African-american woman who. She taught young people and ah she was um, she'd heard about my desire to work with young people and she said why don't you come speak to the kids in my progressive classroom at this progressive school. Kind of a visionary school and you know that was a bit scary for me because even though like I would stand in front of the room and lead these really intensive trainings called Boot Camps Um, walking into like a high school setting like high school for me was terrible. Ah, most of high school was terrible. I had no friends I was extremely shy and so that brought a lot of fear. But I you know I knew I had to do it and I prepared what I felt was a revolutionary conversation which brought up more fear because I thought you know maybe the administrators might you know. Give me the boot. Um, but I gave everything to this presentation and you know the kids were like very polite and just left to said. Thank you and like like it was nothing you know and I was really called I was I was really so I was really kind of there to start a revolution and ah.
02:53.39
Michael
I was so frustrated at the end of that class and I expressed my frustration to to this friend of mine and she came to me and said you know I'm leading I'm taking ah I'm taking some high schoolers to Kenya on a three week
02:55.36
calltocourage
Ah.
03:12.54
Michael
Kind of cultural exchange program where we're gonna go on Safari we're gonna meet local people. We're gonna stay with local people and I need someone to teach a curriculum to the the kids while we're there the Kenyan kids and something inside me like I can feel it now just came so alive like my heart was just like like fuck. Yeah that's exactly. Kind of thing that I want you know and so everything inside of my head said. No you know it's not bright timing I don't have the money It's not practical all these excuses and then when people my life started telling me oh Africa's dangerous you could you know die this way and that way and the other way and I was like we think none of you got I've ever been to Africa what the hell do you know and I could just tell they were operating of fear and so I was like well my fear must be the same plus this woman has all the confidence in the world.
03:54.65
calltocourage
Ah.
04:01.10
calltocourage
Um.
04:09.15
Michael
And she was kind of she had a tendency to just jump into things completely unprepared and I was like she's gonna need help and so I said yes I said I'm going and I got on that plane tonight and I came and. And the experience changed my life I came so alive there with the kids. My experience working with the young people in Kenya was night and day different from the american kids and so many other things about Kenya and I promised the kids I'd come back at least every four years and that's happened and every time I come back, you know I go deeper I've got friends here now going on what 18 years now and I've led different transformational safaris here I let amend safari here. Two years ago now um and just recently I had a baby here so I was here all last year as I was preparing the summit and preparing to for us to give birth to our daughter.
05:16.76
calltocourage
Amazing. How do you have a base back in the States law is is your home now in Nauribbi and Kenya.
05:22.91
Michael
No I left on a 1 way ticket for good I gave myself the freedom and never come back and I like really left left. Yeah and that was that was that was fifteen years ago it was after my second trip to Kenya.
05:31.52
calltocourage
And that was eighteen years ago okay
05:40.68
Michael
4 years after the first one in 2010 when I again it I was so profound and I felt so alive here and I was here for two months this time that time and when I returned to the states I could feel myself closing. Down you know like I would look at people with this aliveness and they would look away and it was like it's just like it was too much like I was too alive and I could so feel my self starting get small and I was like fuck. No and I got a. I saw my things and I got a 1 ne-way ticket out. So.
06:20.00
calltocourage
What is that? What's the difference. What what do you? What do you put that down to.
06:27.82
Michael
You know I think that we all learn a way to cope with the world like we we learn a certain way of behaving and carrying ourselves and I grew up on the East Coast of the us and it's colder out there than it is out west and it is in Texas ah, and.
06:44.30
calltocourage
Um.
06:45.61
Michael
You know I just just around other guys. You know like on the street I'm not going to smile at you first I'm not going to say hello first I'm not going to show any vulnerability vulnerability. You know I'm going to give you the kind of look like I'm better than you and no fuck with me that was kind of my demeanor. You know? and so ah, but you know in in Africa and well I spent three months in Australia where I led an event there in 2010 with just just surrounded by people who've had their hearts open and really intimate. You know connection for three months and then Africa for two months so it was like five months of just my my heart bursting open and and great adventure and and all of it and ah you know when I came back.
07:40.21
Michael
I would say that yeah America is and as as a culture and as a generality is just not as alive as Africa you know and most of the people are not as alive as the time that I the people I was around in Australia. So just that you know it just it's it's.
07:55.87
calltocourage
Heaven.
07:59.30
Michael
I came back with a level of like aliveness and connectiveness that just got the sense I was I was too much but it wasn't just that I was I was yearning for Africa I was. Was yearning for adventure. You know I was yeah it was that and then I had a big conflict with the guy actually who you know so I'd I'd I'd come back to gift 1 of my four day events. To conscientious objectors who are basically soldiers or or veterans who have defied orders because it it violates their conscience and those guys a lot of times are are shamed ah their their retirement is taken away from them. They're dishonorably discharged and my work is all about honor. And so I wanted to yeah restore honor with them and and honor them and my work had saved the life of guys like that before so I was I was I was so you know excited to do this work. And I had a guy who I I paid a lot of money to help me promote this event put on this event and he just totally didn't show up like no every what I call honor it is that none of it you know and I went to the extreme I went to great lengths to try to.
09:23.84
calltocourage
I.
09:29.52
Michael
Have things work with him and just he just wouldn't meet me and make things right? and so there was also a business failure. You know like a month or 2 after I returned with this guy and so I felt humiliated I was angry and I was starting to have violent thoughts.
09:40.85
calltocourage
Okay.
09:48.15
calltocourage
I get.
09:49.90
Michael
and I and I knew that I had to face myself and look at what was you know how I how i' created that situation in the first place. So I know was little really drawn out on so answer but I went also to travel to explore my shadow and the shadow of my culture and. I didn't feel like I was ready to keep to continue leading my events until I did that.
10:14.74
calltocourage
Beautiful. What? Ah what did you find when you went looking for your shadow.
10:26.10
Michael
Well, um, you know there's like there's this American that Okay, so it's very much tied up with the American like self-help shadow I would say and the and the American entrepreneur. Shadow So. There's kind of this idea as as entrepreneurs that you know, um, just take a lot of risk make a bunch of promises and then heroically deliver on the promises.
11:02.34
Michael
You know, fake it to you make it? whatever make it work and I I realized that my way of taking a lot of risk exposed other people to risk for example, um you know the the people who ah.
11:04.00
calltocourage
Are.
11:22.32
Michael
Like this event was to help other people as well. But in a way I put them at risk by not you know by some of the ways I went about business and ah so.
11:38.31
Michael
Really took a hard look at that and I had to I had to acknowledge to myself that um with the kind of work that I that I was doing you know about honor and work where people have sometimes profound spiritual experiences and things like this.
11:56.75
Michael
Um, yeah that I didn't want to be doing that I mean I found a lot so this could take a long time but that yeah yeah.
12:01.65
calltocourage
Yeah, yeah.
12:11.58
Michael
Yeah, yeah.
12:13.11
calltocourage
I'm good to keep hearing about this I think ah I'd love to do do you feel like you've integrated and and let me let me say what I think I've been ah from what I understand is that anybody that's doing transformational work as a guide or a coach or a healer.
12:30.60
calltocourage
Unless they're a complete Charlatan has to have the path of the wounded healer as part of it meaning I can't coach on sex addiction until I've been through that journey myself and been through that walk that path in order to do it and so the ability to be able to coach and speak about honor ready requires. Us to have come from a place where we didn't act in integrity or in honor in order to be able to know what it means to show up in honor and how does that land with you in terms of yeah recognizing that and and the integration of it.
13:03.17
Michael
Yeah, hundred percent well I've also heard it said that we teach what we most need to learn right? So um, yeah, a big part of what I allowed myself to explore and experience and really.
13:06.70
calltocourage
Yeah.
13:19.30
Michael
Own was my desire um from my sexual desire to my desire in general. Um, and this was profound was profound for me. Um, but also.
13:35.55
calltocourage
So.
13:37.33
Michael
Um, what I So what I did was I got rid of my business like I stopped I stopped promoting myself I stopped marketing myself I stopped telling people who I was in terms of the work that I do which sounded kind of really superior to people and whatever.
13:55.54
calltocourage
For.
13:56.95
Michael
And I stopped all of that I stopped planning my future I stopped even planning I stopped planning where I was going to go next. So when I would meet people I was all about just connecting with them in the present moment and I was all about giving and receiving and it was a really like humbling experience. And people would ask me you know because like some place like Brazil for example, is where I spent a lot of time the first couple years after I was gone they give americans a lot of esteem a lot of respect like they'll really look up to americans and ah. It could have been really easy to capitalize on that I mean I may have in some ways you know, ah go get on a bus and I say if few were ah words in my american accent and all the girls on the bus are fixing their hair before they even turn around and look to see if it is. Like because you sound like as an american I sound like I don't know like I'm from hollywood or something and so there were definitely I'm I'm sure I definitely ah enjoyed some unfair advantages there. But um I just start I just started like giving nonsensical answers to serious questions. You know.
14:51.89
calltocourage
Ah.
14:57.44
calltocourage
Ah.
15:11.33
Michael
And I just allowed myself to enjoy just the in the moment connections with everybody like one of the things that was profound for me is I realized that from my old like kind of american perspective There were so many people that had been invisible to me. You know, ah like if back in America if you weren't a potential customer. Um, or we weren't in a network like if there wasn't some use for you then you didn't even show up as like a real purse almost.
15:44.34
calltocourage
Still.
15:48.92
Michael
And I started enjoying some of the most profound connections with people who were like street people beggars prostitutes really poor people Some of those people were were really the most connective and alive. And they operate much more in a giving receiving world and that was the world that I started exploring. So um, yeah I like consciously try to set aside everything that could have me rely on my old Persona I would say.
16:24.80
calltocourage
Yeah that's so beautiful I think there's something to be said I think there's a heard the saying that you can judge someone's integrity by how they treat everybody including like the waiter at the restaurant or the server that shows up for them and I yeah recognize that part of myself as well. I had it more recently. As a bit of a lut bulb moment where I moved into men's work and I've been tracking my own desire for money and my money shadow where I started to see men in my world as potential customers. You know like I would be like ah there's Michael I haven't spoken to him in a while. Let me reach out and see if he wants to be part of my program and it was somehow always linked to trying to make a sale instead of yeah, just coming from an authentic place of wanting to show up and be in service. So yeah I resonate with I resonate with that it's it's
17:13.77
calltocourage
It what do? How do we get there. What's what's that what's that purpose. How did we develop to become so transactional in our engagements with 1 another have you gone back to think through that is it. Ah, function of culture. Is it a function of a wound or what do you see.
17:34.10
Michael
Well I mean I think in the Us and ah, it's the case in a lot of the Western world that we are so far in debt like so many of us you know we buy the biggest house we can buy buy.
17:51.62
calltocourage
Um, is nothing.
17:51.72
Michael
Borrow money from the bank and be able to afford the the monthly mortgage the car everything like nothing is ours. It's actually borrowed So the moment that we can't pay the bill. It gets taken from us and if you're a man if if everything gets taken from you.
18:03.28
calltocourage
Are.
18:08.80
Michael
You're going to also probably lose your wife and your kids and like so there's an underlying sense of anxiety I think like fear you know, um and I got to keep going like I got to keep spinning that wheel that run the Rat Race I don't have time to connect.
18:11.12
calltocourage
The truth.
18:19.17
calltocourage
Um.
18:24.17
calltocourage
Yep.
18:26.97
Michael
And that's what I found in Africa on the first time I was like okay wait a second like compared to America is these people have no money how do they have so much time like it was like you know time is a rich people thing. How do these people have so much time you know and I and i.
18:43.29
calltocourage
I had.
18:46.46
Michael
Yeah, it was ah but they're not in debt. They're not in debt. You know they're not working like slaves just trying to pay the banks and trying to avoid the high interest fees and all of that So they're not caught up in the Rat race.
18:54.90
calltocourage
Um, ah.
18:59.40
calltocourage
Ah.
19:04.97
Michael
You know, like the rest of us and this was it was eighteen years ago so I mean it's changing all over the world. People are starting to adopt kind of this modern western way of life which is sad in a lot of respects but um. Yeah, so I think that. And basically Gareth what we do is like what do we do when we get money we buy tools and technology to be able to go faster. You know like. Buy a washing machine. So now I don't have to wash with my hands. Buy a microwaves to now I've spend as much time cooking and with every one of these contraptions that we buy to be able to maybe save time. We don't save time we use that time to go even faster.
20:01.74
calltocourage
And I have.
20:02.49
Michael
Which means really less and less and less time. That's a big part of it. Yeah.
20:08.88
calltocourage
Thank you for sharing that? Yeah that's profound and yet it made me think of a time when I first arrived in India on my travels I left South Africa and found myself in India also on a journey of self-discovery and personal healing. When I first got there I arrived and looking through my lens which I think in some ways the world that I grew up in South Africa has a similar lens to um, most of the western death of the America in terms of how much of a rush I was into continually make more and more the money trap of continually wanting to consume and to buy and i. Arrived in India and I I remember thinking wow these poor people have no money there and I felt the sadness about how I I viewed their their way of life and as I spent time living with a local family down in the south of India for a while the man who he rents at the house from he lived at the back of the house and he drove a took took. And yeah, he lived like you know a couple dollars every single day flowing his ability to be able to pay for his life as he as he earned it and initially I was like wow shame these guys are already battling and the more time I spent there what I actually noticed is that he would fetch his. Friend who lived next door his kids he would take them to school in his took took he'd probably do 1 or 2 runs and then come back home. The friend who lived next door was also a barber and his barbershop operated from his home and these 2 men would sit on the street all day drinking chai chatting their kids often playing in the street in front of them.
21:39.55
calltocourage
Sometimes his friend would cut hair sometimes the other man would go and take somebody on a tocktook ride to pay the bills but suddenly I was like wow they have a way of laugh that is so chilled they can be around the people that matter the most to them for more hours in a day than I see my. Successful and inverted commerce millionaire friends in South Africa who many of which don't actually even know how to be with their own children because they they're so busy focusing on money and their careers and things like that that they're not sure even how to be around their own kids and when their kids have got holiday from school. They put them into summer camps. And yeah I saw somebody who I had originally judged as in a worse place because of their lack of money actually in a far happier more peaceful, less stressful place spending time sitting in the sun chatting to his mate with his kids around and I was like wow I had it. So badly wrong like I had judged it in a way that was somehow yeah exactly what you're saying we're continually rushing and we've deemed success to equal money and things and in some ways it actually takes away from the the very things that make us that make life meaningful.
22:45.97
Michael
Yeah, they have those guys you're talking about. They had a wealth of time and a wealth of connection and most people like ultimately if they were to make a ton of money That's what they would say I just want to have the freedom to you know.
22:53.90
calltocourage
And.
23:02.10
Michael
Enjoy my family and hang out on the beach or just relax. You know what I mean and a lot of a lot of poor people I would say less so like in a big city where there's There's no like wealth of the land and.
23:07.46
calltocourage
Ah.
23:19.54
Michael
You know you have the stress also and and the maybe the smog and all the the unhealthy pollution and stuff like that but like around the world as I've traveled what I've seen is that the the poor people who like live in the countryside in a lot of ways. They're the most wealthy people. You know in terms of quality of life and connection and enjoyment and yeah, ah it it was it was wild to see that I had so many experiences like that as I'm sure you did that.
23:54.87
Michael
I just couldn't going back to the us felt like reentering the matrix. It's this place where everything is warped. You know what? I'm saying like everything's warped and I had an experience for example in Brazil um I would.
23:59.40
calltocourage
Yeah.
24:12.86
Michael
I might have mentioned to you before like I was on this gifting journey. Well I so I went to gift my and and Kenya started that because I gifted my work for the first time in Kenya well I went to Brazil and I wanted to gift my work again and ah.
24:22.67
calltocourage
Okay.
24:31.60
Michael
The the guy who had brought me to Brazil 1 of my former students who I'd also gifted an event to right after Kenya he he didn't want to me to gift the things to his people because he's like no, they won't appreciate it and there's ah all these ideas like in a capitalist system that if if you. Gift something people won't appreciate it and that's they're confusing ah as like a sacred gift with something that's free like if you get if you don't want your old couch anymore and you set it out on the street with a free sign on it.
24:59.95
calltocourage
Okay, 1
25:07.67
Michael
Yeah, no, one's going to really appreciate that couch you know, but if the couch means something to you and you give it to someone in need as a gift as a personal gift that means something they're really going to value. You know that? but so anyway.
25:14.19
calltocourage
Um, free. All.
25:18.61
calltocourage
Are.
25:26.10
Michael
After I gift one of these evening events um a guy showed up who didn't speak any english and he said you know tell Michael I've got a beach house on the coast of Brazil that just lies empty nine months of the year tell him he can go and stay as long as he wants. Rent free in my beach house and there was ah there was an indigenous woman who came up to me afterwards also and she wanted to be my girlfriend and show me all around Brazil so we went on a tour and we went to this guy's beach house to live for free.
25:45.75
calltocourage
Wow.
26:01.68
Michael
She's cooking my meals taking care of me loving me with just this warm, warm feminine sweet generosity and you know there's mangoes dropping from the trees of the jungle around the house and the.
26:07.22
calltocourage
Um.
26:15.98
calltocourage
I.
26:16.18
Michael
The fish the fishermen are out fishing 2 hours a day and then they play their guitar. The rest of the day like and I had an experience of like okay this is what americans dream of being able to do what one day when they retire and if they've saved up enough money. And I but anyway I had a lot of experiences like that that just really made me question. Everything about the way the western world worked.
26:43.71
calltocourage
Um, what got you to a place of deciding to go on this gifting journey. What was the what was the thing that made you suddenly decide to start gifting as a practice.
26:53.70
Michael
Well I was kind of an extreme capitalist. You know I Rand was a big influence on me in my twenty s and she's a very kind of people would call her maybe like an extreme author but she makes a very powerful.
26:59.91
calltocourage
What is Andre.
27:11.80
Michael
Strong defense of capitalism and freedom and individual rights. Not from a religious perspective from a logical perspective. But anyway it's kind of a it is a bit of an extreme perspective and so and that was my mentality excuse me.
27:31.66
calltocourage
Is.
27:31.77
Michael
And when I went to Kenya the first time I just was going to go gift my work for the first time ever. You know to these Kenya kids and when I did it and I saw the kids receive it and they're in tears and were working together and they're they're like. The connection I felt with those kids was so powerful. So I arrived home from from Kenya and'm and I'm trying to process this like right and I'm talking to my former girlfriend about it who is like my co-facilitator and she's like you know what? if we gift. Next I stand which was my big signature event and um, this is the main way I make money right? So it seemed crazy. It was like almost my only source of income and it takes months to prepare and it takes a big team and everything it's like. It was gonna take a lot of trust to do that. But I felt so alive about it. So I I did I gifted the next event to people that I was inspired to gift it to and that event ended up being the most powerful event that I'd ever led and even to this date is the most powerful event that I've ever led. And it was 100% gifted and it for the first time ever. Everything was 100% paid before the event even started and it was like what I'm even in more financial integrity and I've gifted this events you know so like that those were the gifting experiences this started off like okay, there's a different way that.
28:56.69
calltocourage
And.
29:04.40
Michael
That things can work other than this very capitalist way and I kept having profound experiences in the gifting realm. Yeah.
29:14.93
calltocourage
I Love that it's such a mindset shift though for so many of us like the sense of you know I'll gift when I have money you know like that that part of the the scenario and I think it actually probably works the other way around like our ability to be able to receive is linked to our inherent trust that as we as we share and gift and. Support others that that is the start of the flow of energy that will come back to us. But yeah, that's a so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. What's what was your original in. Go ahead.
29:45.24
Michael
Um, but I'll just add I Just ask I think this is important that I took on the part the practice I took on was also no more debt so no loaning money. No borrowing money from people.
29:52.84
calltocourage
Is a.
30:01.65
calltocourage
And.
30:02.20
Michael
And no loaning money to people. So if I meet you somewhere in the world and you're a friend of mine and you you ask for a loan I do I Just tell you I don't do loans. But if I felt a desire to give to you I would give to you the exact amount that I feel good about gifting to you.
30:12.75
calltocourage
Um, Wow again.
30:20.33
calltocourage
Okay.
30:21.29
Michael
Without any expectation to return just the amount that I feel good about and that clear for me that clears up a lot you know? And yeah anyway I can go deep on it because it's so profound for me. But yeah.
30:31.86
calltocourage
Um.
30:35.35
calltocourage
Go deep on it share if there's something more there I mean I think that's really powerful because I find myself as well. I live in Guatemala and I'm I'm often presented with opportunities to help men in the community or people that need support and they're asking me for loans and yeah I've got to. I've got a few thousand dollars out in loans in the world at the moment and some of it gets paid back and some of it doesn't but I'm interested to hear what how you? How do you hold that.
31:02.57
Michael
Well, the first. My first 2 trips to Kenya I gave away everything and came came home broke. Ah, and I realized you know it's like given money to people on the street in my country as well. It doesn't really change anything you know for the most part. Um. So later on when I came I would I would I would gift my entrepreneurship workshops that I would do in Kenya and Uganda and stuff and I would say you know ah I'll teach you how to make money how to make your own money like teach a man to fish kind of a thing but I don't give out money.
31:35.10
calltocourage
Yet.
31:38.90
Michael
You know? so but what I did on my um, you know more of my practice was like giving and receiving on all levels. You know so people this was back in the day people used to do ah use the app called couchsurfing I don't think it's so big anymore.
31:54.67
calltocourage
Yeah I use that a few times. Yeah, yeah, cool.
31:57.80
Michael
But I started and this is amazing. It's an it's a gift economy Charles Eisenstein talks about gift economy and and it's hard for people to wrap their head around that people would just give you their bedroom or their couch or their. Bungalow or whatever and let you stay for however, long and just treat you so nice and show you around town. Um, but 1 of my practices because I when I was traveling I most of the time I was not paying for my own place to stay. I was showing up in a way where people tend to invite me to come and stay with them like I was showing up so generously that people's response was to give back to me and um or invite me into their world by giving something to me for example, invite me to come stay with them. And 1 of my practices was because I totally could have just taken advantage of that and just like used all these freestas. You know my one of my practices was that I would always wash the dishes you know because people in many countries they want to just. Be a good host and give to the foreigner and they'll just take you in and they'll like even in ah Kuwait I had an iranian man who worked in the the first floor of the high-rise place I was staying in couchsurfing and ah.
33:27.99
Michael
And I went down there and he wouldn't let me buy anything like he would just say take whatever you want and I say what's going on but a lot of the world is actually maybe okay, maybe not that generous but they're very gracious and kind. So. It's it's something that as a kind of capitalistic kind of competitive western guy I totally could have taken advantage of you know so my practice was ah to first of all, it was to receive if I felt that if someone's giving me something genuinely.
33:54.67
calltocourage
Um, ah.
34:03.32
Michael
Receive it and most of us are blocked in receiving. You know we're afraid oh I might owe them or whatever so that was one of the practice if you feel it's actually a genuine gift then receive it and receive it graciously.
34:03.43
calltocourage
Yes, yes.
34:21.17
Michael
Because to receive the gift that someone wants to give you is actually giving them a gift people around the world have such a so many people around the world and people with money. Love to give but so many people don't want any charity or help or.
34:25.38
calltocourage
Yes, to be able to gift you.
34:40.13
Michael
They they view it in this kind of in this kind of way so that was a practice. Um for me, but like when I would go and stay with people. Um, my practice was to always do the dishes you know and always show up generously and like I was. This gifting and receiving thing for me wasn't just on a financial level. It was on in terms of my my time my listening my spirit my service you know and Gareth it changed my life because I realized how generous humanity really is.
35:04.60
calltocourage
And.
35:18.81
Michael
Whereas the world that I thought I lived in before was a very dog eatat dog world. Well I realized it was only dogy dog because that's that's who I was being so.
35:32.99
calltocourage
Ah, that story is so beautiful I've got to yeah similar similar things of also traveling to to third world countries like Sri Lanka and spending time in India as well. You sit on a train and you start talking to somebody who's genuinely interested. And then they want to share their lunch For example, they open up their lunch and they're about to eat and they want to share it with you and there's a part of me that was immediately like I can't receive this. You need the food more than me I've got money you don't like some story read in my head but I noticed when I the first few times when I didn't want to take somebody's food. There was a genuine. Maybe disappointment from the person who had wanted to share and meet us in this place of being able to share and by me saying no because I had a story that I could afford food in this man couldn't I had prevented him from being able to share the gift that I could receive of having a meal with somebody and every time I said yes to it. Broke down all the barriers and already created such a beautiful connection and the same thing I would then not necessarily have to share money back but maybe share what I had water cannabis whatever was around that we were involved in what we were engaging with there was an opportunity to do that and it just felt so beautiful every single time and. But it really required for me like you said breaking the old story that oh no I contact this from you because I've got more than you have and when I didn't do that it. It didn't allow for this reciprocity to flow.
36:56.22
Michael
Yeah, and and and not receiving gifts from people like that. It's ah it's a disconnection like it's ah it's it is a kind of rejection you know of like.
37:08.45
calltocourage
Aha.
37:12.59
Michael
They are creating a but they are intending to create a bond you know and share love and and and give what they have to give you know and yeah, over a number of experiences to Kenya. You know I I radically changed my. Ah.
37:14.54
calltocourage
Yes, yep.
37:31.72
Michael
Approach that they had so much to teach me and share with me and you know versus the other way around. Yeah.
37:38.81
calltocourage
Move.
37:46.86
calltocourage
Beautiful. So You're currently finding yourself in ah in a place in your life where you're you're working with Mene How did that start you said initially your aim had been to work and be in service with young men as but I heard you speak a little bit more about about Veterans. What's. What was the interest that got you onto this particular path of wanting to be in service to men.
38:08.21
Michael
Um, I mean maybe that my own journey as a young man was quite difficult my parents divorced when I was 14 and my dad left home and yeah I had to find my way. Ah largely on my own. Um, and yeah, my parents went to went to war really divided the family and you know I was really contending with a very dominating mother and I ask i. I escaped home at 17 before my senior high school but I left my 2 younger brothers at home. So you know I was aware of this and it was when I found out. That each of my brothers were in a difficult spot in the ensuing few years I went back for them so to speak it was just like ah I don't know like of course you know like a calling you know and I took my 2 younger brothers.
39:13.97
calltocourage
And.
39:17.73
Michael
My my first experience really working with people was my own younger brothers who I took under my wing and a third guy who picked who became my brother in law and um I they were all working for me minimum wage labor in a landscape business and um.
39:37.68
Michael
I I split the business up into 3 and sold them on a vision of each of them being entrepreneurs and then I boot camped them into manhood and ah extreme self responsibility. Um.
39:57.33
Michael
Ah, and it was. It was the most profound experience in my life that that was the beginning that was like when like this is what this is what I'm here to do you know? So yeah, that was back in ninety six ninety seven so that was the that was the beginning of that and then. They soon and I mean after just a few months they're like all right mike back off, we got it. You know like they really radically transformed from being pot smoking Nintendo playing minimum wage earning guys doing nothing with their lives to totally self-pon. With vision with control over their own business hiring people selling door to door like it. The responsibility with the vision and the freedom and the income potential. It's thrilling you know so. They got it they and and they moved on. They're like Mike fuck off, we take it from here so I had to go back and start another landscaping business and when I did I found myself taking in young men who needed help ex cons drug addicts. Even the lazy ass university kids who never lasted very long ah and and I ran my landscape business like a boot camp like seriously my greatest passion there was turning boys into men you know and.
41:29.67
Michael
No good man into good men and I just loved it Man I Just loved it. So that's kind of where yeah and I just loved that experience.
41:38.65
calltocourage
What what is it in that boot camp type environment that shifts somebody. What do you think it is what's the nature of the experience that takes somebody from not knowing where they are to suddenly finding their way and getting back on their feet. What do you think that is.
41:59.97
Michael
You know I I think that ah like let's say I'm really living at a much higher level of courage and integrity and strength and commitment and everything a guy who's not consents that you know and. If. He's naturally gonna look up to you and you call him out and you have nothing to hide because you face everything and he tries to give you some bullshit excuse that normally he gets away with when it's just him and himself or him and his Buddies. He knows he's full of shit you know.
42:32.23
calltocourage
I.
42:33.84
Michael
And so if you just create. Yeah if you create that kind of environment guys. Want to level Up. No Guys Guys. Don't want to be suffering with their own bullshit excuses and I don't feel like it like no guy enjoys that you know and so. Um, and then when they when they do get their shit together Now. They have your respect and it feels so Good. So I don't know I don't think that it needs to take that long. You know for kind of a young guy to. Be put in that situation where he I mean becoming going from boy to man is just a natural thing. Of course he's gonna want to do that You know so I don't know I I I Just love that and talking about it. Yeah Yeah. Um.
43:38.28
Michael
Yeah, but no I I just I just I love those situations. Yeah.
43:46.90
calltocourage
I Want to ask you about a word you used a few times when that last little story was radical self- responsibility What does that mean to you? Why is it important.
44:00.86
Michael
Man it's it's ah it's everything because there's such power and freedom available in taking responsibility. It's like ah you know it's like a cheat code for a. Video game or something. Um, yeah, so we had some radical practices for self-respon and for calling each other Out. Um. We use the term called Ally which means that unlike a friend or maybe most people's idea of a friend which is to make you feel Comfortable. An ally sees the highest within you and holds you to that and Accepts nothing less. And so this is the kind of agreement that we created with each other and so we yeah we created all kinds of ways to call each other out and kind of live at our highest it. It was not so much a pyramid kind of thing with me at the top. It was like we were all in a way we were all equals.
44:54.96
calltocourage
Um.
45:13.46
Michael
Holding each other ah to account but it was yeah um, and I still to me I think this is I think I think a path of no compromise. And this was something that I was influenced by this author I told you about Ain Rand ah you like there's one book. Um, it's a fiction book called the fountain head. It's a very famous book and the the hero. Will not compromise his values or his vision for anyone or anything and ah so you know and um.
46:05.60
Michael
Yeah I mean so that's something that I've adopted for my whole life. It's not like I never compromise. But that's my policy is to never compromise so it's just it's just so Powerful. You know for men who want guys who want to man up or they want to. And become more masculine or whatever I Highly recommend taking on a policy of no compromise because if you're compromising in Life. You're not goingnna have honor and if you're compromising in Life. You're not gonna be a leader you know. Um, so and you know it doesn't mean it might sound kind of like dominating like well if you're never going to compromise then you're you're just my way or the highway well will know.
47:00.28
Michael
Creating Win win is ah is ah is a is a no compromise approach where you create a better outcome for everyone than either of you saw to begin with and that's a no compromise approach sacrificing is a no compromise approach which gives you profound honor. But.
47:14.50
calltocourage
Ah.
47:20.20
Michael
It's something different from compromise. So yeah for men who really want to be powerful masculine men and leaders no compromise and taking a hundred percent responsibility are yeah, it's the way.
47:38.92
calltocourage
What is what is radical self-responsibility look like what is what does that look like as a practice.
47:49.76
Michael
Well I think there's there's many practices but and I've created some tools 1 of them is called the inner conflict diagram and this is a way of you know? um.
48:03.61
Michael
Let's say you you tell you? let's say you tell yourself. Okay I'm going to start getting up in the morning and running at 6 a m and then tomorrow comes and it's raining outside. Well it's raining I'll run tomorrow right? and then. The next day comes and you stayed up really late and you're like well I stayed up really late I'll I'll run tomorrow right? pretty soon. There's no commitment left at all because you start making so many excuses but the inner conflict diagram it allows you to diagram. What's happening in that moment when you wake up and you don't. Feel like getting out of bed. There's the party that doesn't feel like you getting out of bed. But there's also the party that said you would right? So this is as this is a moment of stress. This is a moment in your your mind that you your consciousness needs a way to deal with this split inside of you so by a.
48:43.71
calltocourage
Okay.
48:55.75
Michael
By being able to diagram it and see it in 1 sheet of paper. It allows your conscious mind and to now have a choice in the matter and to choose a different path whereas this this? Um, normally we compromise in little moments when we're not even conscious that we're Compromising. We just do it automatically and this drains our power. So I guess to answer your question like I've created a lot of tools and things like this for extreme self- responsibility. So. It's not like just 1 practice. But I man there's ah yeah.
49:33.56
Michael
My work is a result of that commitment. Yeah.
49:33.97
calltocourage
That's good. So so just for clarity. Yeah I mean it's actually got into what I was going to ask you next which is around integrity like the development of integrity as a practice and this is it. You know like the ability to be able to have integrity. With your word and integrity in your relationships has to start with your integrity that you have with yourself keeping the promises that you make to yourself so just to get kid on this diagram There's Gareth that goes running and Gareth that doesn't go running and I map these two things out on a piece of paper when I wake up in the morning and don't feel like doing it and suddenly I'm like okay. I recognize that integrity means sticking with my word making the other choice is breaking my integrity and now I have a visual cue that supports me to take responsibility for the decision that I chose to make because that hard works.
50:22.52
Michael
Ah, yeah I mean the best thing would be to show you but um, it's It's like you have an emotional experience as you go through it because you realize this automatic process. How much this is compromising you. And everything that you say you care about you know and you can just see the loop you know and it's a lot of times just seeing it laid out. Ah so plainly, it's kind of hard to then unsee it. You know.
50:40.28
calltocourage
And.
50:53.36
calltocourage
Okay.
50:54.74
Michael
So The next it's It's not going to happen. So Unconsciously the next time you know? Um, but yeah it it. That's part of it. You know if we once we see clearly the the patterns that are ruining our lives. Now. It gives us another it gives us another. It gives us a choice right? There's something that we can do about it. Um, but with most things that are addictions or just things where we're just at a complete loss of power.
51:19.63
calltocourage
Over.
51:31.13
Michael
There's something unconscious there happening like we're not consciously choosing to betray our values and to um, not have integrity. There is some kind of unconscious like loop or program that's running so.
51:49.10
calltocourage
How do what do you see as the role of like men's work and or mentors and or coaches in supporting 1 another in this journey.
51:49.23
Michael
Yeah.
51:59.79
Michael
Yeah I think it's huge I mean my first mentors were I guess authors who I didn't have a personal relationship with and part of what inspired the inner conflict diagram was another one of these mentors by the name of Dr. Eyahu Goldrat also a guy who believed in um, no compromise but he had these logical diagrams and thinking tools for creating and for business. So really powerful. Um, so yeah I mean there are men who have been there done that and gone through the hard times and developed tools and whatever and it's ah it's not just a shortcut the relationship.
52:57.37
Michael
Relationships with an older man who truly gives a fuck about you is priceless. You know not just for your learning journey. But for you having someone that you can see what it is to be a man at the next level and and admire him and and. Want to be like him and I mean I think that mostly we learned through modeling anyway, not through selfdevelopment but through seeing other people and and and copying them. Basically that's the way humans learn usually the fastest. So yeah, but but the the bond of elder and and the younger man or between brothers what father and son is is so rich and but this is a broken bond with a lot of men today father and son or older man and and younger men like we don't respect. Our fathers like children once did we don't respect our elders like young people once did in the western world and we don't honor them either and there's something sacred and beautiful. That's lost when we kind of.
53:52.87
calltocourage
Um.
54:11.11
Michael
Threw that off to be free and independent and me you know like we really throw the baby out with the bathwater when we do that? Yeah, what? what? What do you.
54:24.45
calltocourage
Yeah I think it actually be yeah I'm gonna just echo what you're saying I think it's the it's the it's the lack of initiation that young men don't have access to. When we throw that out either intentionally because I don't give a fuck about my dad and you can't make me whatever that is or we have an absent father figure. So There's just this hole where the potential opportunity was for us to be able to see what healthy masculinity looked like as you said. Through Modeling is no point of drawing it on a diagram. This is what mature masculine looks like an intelligent teenager to be that he needs to have a model that he can see that's like ah this is how you do it and this is how I see somebody showing up in integrity and I'm surrounded by either older men or at least men of my own level who are. Modeling that level of integrity like you said where they called you bullshit every time and you can't hide you know because they've done the work and they were able to show up in that moment. They're also open to receiving reflection from their peers about where they fall short and take that responsibility that self-respon that. Yes I did say I would do this and I and I haven't shown up for that. So I think that part is it's the boy crisis that I think we're facing in in the west at the moment where we have absent fathers and young men don't know quite what to do and their only way from there is either completely withdraw.
55:50.53
calltocourage
Go onto social media stayat home smoke weed play Nintendo because the rest is just too painful or to get into some sort of gang or something like that where there's some form of initiation but it's perhaps more anchored in like the immature expression of being having to move that energy which results in. Yeah, the crisis that comes from drug addiction and and gang warfare that type of stuff. So I think that's that's potentially the challenge that that masculinity is facing at the moment.
56:19.16
Michael
Yeah I would say what's also lost is you know when ah when a boy or a guy young man rejects his father stands in judgment of his father. Um, he breaks this this lineage where a lot is passed On. Um, and he's not able to fully honor himself as a Man. He's not able to fully embrace his potential as a man. Um, because the way that he's standing in judgment of his father is actually. Blocking the the positive attributes of his father that go along with his dad's shortcomings. You know. So For example, Ah um. Ah, guy who let's say a guy's you know, ah a boy's father leaves home and mostly in in sympathy with his mom. He's he agrees Dad is too Aggressive. He's too Angry. He's too. Selfish. He's too Domineering. He's too., Whatever.
57:25.21
calltocourage
And.
57:28.22
Michael
This kid is going to have a lot of trouble being successful or really being a leader being his own man if he's all the time trying to avoid looking to anybody as at any time too aggressive too selfish too dominating to whatever. Um. Like he cuts himself off from that masculine power of his father as he stands in judgment of his father and Gareth you look frozen there. He's still there. Might be an internet issue.
58:49.57
calltocourage
You back brother.
58:52.83
Michael
A sorry about that That was my internet.
58:55.87
calltocourage
No worries just pick it up exactly where you started that part where I had finished with my little ramble and go because I think there was something valuable there then I'll just edit that little just little blimp out and we can flow from there. So the part where you were talking about what happens when a stand a man stands in judgment of his father.
59:14.67
Michael
When a man stands in judgment of his father. He's also cuts himself off to the related virtues of his father. Um, the the manly aspects of his father that that the son was judging and this is. This can be hard to fully grasp or understand and I have a diagram for this as well called the honor window. You know, um, it's ah it's a lead into to the kind of shadow work with your father or your mother or other people. Um to grow as a man.
59:37.96
calltocourage
Ah.
59:50.39
Michael
And um, again, this is taking extreme self- responsibility. You know it's ah it's another tool for taking extreme self responsibility. But yeah, there's so many ways that um, ah you know Jordan Peterson uses this phrase rescue your father from the underworld. And what he's talking about is the ancestral father or the the full potential that lies in your Dna passed on from your ancestors of who you could be as a man that is that you've not fully received or that you've not fully developed. And um, um, yeah to rescue your father from the underworld is ah is a journey is a hero's journey into the the shadow realm and my honor window tool is ah.
01:00:45.56
Michael
Is a gateway to go on that journey.
01:00:48.87
calltocourage
How do people access your work is it something that's available to young men. How do you if you got to will include all your links in the in the bio Below. What is the the nature of your delivery of this content for someone listening to the show that's like fuck This is really what I need or a young man is like this is this is what I need you, they need to be. In person with you or can we link up some stuff in the show notes that give them access to these tools.
01:01:14.18
Michael
Yeah I don't really have a ah current website. My website's like 15 years old from before I left on my journey but um, ah.
01:01:24.50
calltocourage
Ah.
01:01:27.36
Michael
You know for a man who's listening to this interested in this conversation about men and masculinity and elders and brothers and honor and extreme responsibility I would suggest going to listening to my Roan Radio Podcast on Youtube.
01:01:41.64
calltocourage
Awesome. I'm going to use this opportunity even though we're on air to say that brother What I'm creating with the father Sons Brothers Community is really based on a model of collaboration. Rather than an old model of masculinity which is in competition and it's based on the idea that I think that we would create a significantly better platform and a better experience for men that want to dive into this work when we co-create something together I have tools and maps and models that. Support Perhaps a different way of looking at the same challenge and yeah, maybe off air if this feels like something that you want to bring and co-create with us at Fathers Sons Brothers I would love to yeah, bring your work into our world and find a way to be able to offer everything that you have on the infrastructure that we've already invested in. So that we've got a place for people to be able to check in and so yeah, sit with that I'm not going to press you for it on. So while we're on the show but I would really love to have a place to be like we've got the team and the infrastructure already there like to be able to put this into a place where people could access it and go through your content in a way. Yeah, it would be.
01:02:39.53
Michael
Um, beautiful. No yes.
01:02:50.88
calltocourage
Hugely valuable for our audience and I would love to be able to get your work in front of more people.
01:02:55.96
Michael
Beautiful. Yeah, and and I have a number of like logical tools and diagrams and this sort of a thing that helps with the extreme responsibility and it does give you more facility on your own to do the work yourself. But all these things are much more powerful with a facilitator with a mentor as I'm sure you know you know if a man wants to face a part of Himself. He's never seen before if he wants to go into this shadow round that he can't quite see you know it helps to have someone else.
01:03:17.33
calltocourage
F and.
01:03:32.84
Michael
Can help is shine the spotlight on it. So yeah, there's a lot of work out there to be done. That's so much more powerful if there's someone like you you know to to guide us through it. You know and have brothers you know for accountability on the journey and yeah.
01:03:50.11
calltocourage
Brother I mean this is exactly why we've created the the community that we have you know and what I loved what you spoke about earlier. The idea that it's not actually a hierarchy.. It's like the analogy of a roundtable where the King circle our free men circle that we have. Once a month. There's the opportunity for us to sit as brothers in a circle together with an agreement frame that we're going to show up in our truth and our authenticity and share what's genuinely alive and if we have something that we really want to bring to be able to put that out there and offer it as a space to be able to receive reflection. From our peers because I have shadows that I can't see and I want men like you and other men in my life that I trust that I've walked this path before that are walking with integrity that can call out those places with that I can't see or where I perhaps slip into old patterns or something like that. So yeah to have this. The space has really been. Behind why I've been so passionate about creating this work and yeah hearing yeah these different threads that you're bringing together are confirmation of of why it is that we're creating what we're creating.
01:04:54.00
Michael
Yeah, it's so needed and I encourage any man listening to this if you don't have brothers who really you know have your back and you don't have mentors just reach out reach out. You know, um. Yeah I mean Gareth, you're I get it. You know your heart is there. You know you're showing up for these men and it's a beautiful thing and it's so we need so many more men you know who? yes, show up and say I'm gonna I'm gonna be a brother. But to be an elder.
01:05:28.65
calltocourage
And that's also our theme as Well. You know you've touched on this as Well. You know, father's son's brother is the name of the name of our men's wife Brand is really the recognition that we we have different gifts at different stages of our lives to offer one another as men. You know there's the exuberance of the young. The young man the son in in that phase of his life to be able to support those of us perhaps in the middle stage of life while also honoring the wisdom that comes from the elders that have walked the path before us and to recognize as you said that there's very much an honoring of the the wisdom that is being carried By. Ancestors the people whose shoulders we're standing on and to be able to while they're still alive glean their wisdom and to have them as part of the circle and to to share their reflections not only for us to learn from but also to honor them so that they're at a stage of their life where we're not just putting. Our olders into homes and hoping that they die peacefully without bothering us too much while we're busy doing our own thing but really coming back to this more indigenous way with a family unit or the tribe had all 3 generations sitting around the same fire all offering different levels of of gifts and um. And magic to the trial because as soon as we disconnect from that we disconnect from that magic.
01:06:49.70
Michael
Um, amen yet's ah it not that I want to conclude on this note because it is a little bit dark but I I think it is something about the modern western world. Where we're farming out even our our elders to these commercial homes and these strangers to care for them in their last days you know and I got to see the horror of that because that's the path that my dad chose he absolutely refused to. Let his kids take care of him and yeah, his final weeks were just just terrible like ah like ah like a nightmare you know and I think a lot of us in the modern western world. We don't want to think about that we don't want to think about our. Our death. You know, let's distract herself. Let's take out another loan. Let's buy something else so that we don't have to deal with where the end of the road is there. You know? So yeah.
01:07:51.35
calltocourage
Ah.
01:07:55.30
calltocourage
I think I think that.
01:07:57.30
Michael
There's a lot of work that we have to as men to like recover the sacred connections that have been lost.
01:08:03.69
calltocourage
I Actually think that end of the road I believe is more a portal to the next transition into whatever comes after Death. You know the the mystery the great unknown and what you're saying is yeah, bringing us back into the sacredness to support the people that we love the most. To be in their ease and their relaxation and really in a ah calm and peaceful state of mind as they transition from this body into into whatever comes next and so yeah I think the idea that we just found them out to a. Commercial institution and hope that we don't have to worry too much about it and bury them and that's the end of it I think that ah it creates more more challenge and I think there's also another huge rabbit hole that I'm interested in which is our ability to be able to access grief and to genuinely grieve is um yeah I think something that we've lost. Connection to in the west and yeah from what I understand it creates a lot of challenges when we don't allow ourselves to feel those emotions and um.
01:09:02.59
Michael
And Grief is one of the taboo feelings in the American culture and a lot of modern western culture and just to just to make a full loop here with the gifting. Neither of my parents because they both died within a few months of each other neither one of them would receive the gift of being taken care of by their children in their later years and they both.
01:09:31.99
calltocourage
Um.
01:09:36.96
Michael
They both had endings that I think were traumatizing and difficult. Ah, yeah, because of that. So yeah, difficulty receiving. You know and I get it man I don't I'm not just I don't know if I would want my I have a baby daughter I don't know that I want her wiping my ass when I'm 92 years old and it's anyway.
01:10:04.95
calltocourage
Ah.
01:10:10.89
Michael
Not necessarily leaving it on a positive note here. But.
01:10:15.33
calltocourage
Ah, but I really want to say thank you for for reaching out. You know it was because of you connecting with me that we we got the opportunity to to show up for your your circle of men last weekend. A really beautiful bunch of men from all over the world. That yeah, have subsequently become you know friends of mine and are a part of my network as well now. Um, that's thank you to the effort that you've been putting in I mean we could speak for everyone Just how important it is the work that you're doing showing up and supporting young men as well as. Helping us to be able to feel our emotions and have these authentic and real conversations so that we can build relationships of trust. And yeah, I Just want to say? Thank you for the work that you're putting on into the world rather it's It's an honor to to be on this journey with you like you know another soldier in this. Um.
01:11:05.44
calltocourage
Great awakening and supporting of men in ah in a time that it really feels Needed. So I Just want to say thank you for reaching out and although we've only spent a couple hours hanging out together and it's only been in the digital so far. Um I feel you as an as an ally as you describe it I Love that analogy of ally. Ah yeah I just. It feels good to have you on on my team brother. Thank you.
01:11:29.59
Michael
Likewise Thanks for having me here and howdy to all your guys who might be watching look forward to meeting. Yeah, everyone in the the real world One of these days.
01:11:41.90
calltocourage
Thanks man and again I'm going to ah have a conversation with you outside of this to chat about some of the details. But if you feel like bringing your work and co-creating so that we can make the the father son's brothers offering that we have for the world more meaningful. I'm looking to to bring more of us together to collaborate and and create something magical. So yeah, hopefully people can connect with you either in the king circle this Sunday or um, yeah, any 1 of our live events or inside the tribe membership appreciate you. Brother.
01:12:08.48
Michael
Um, let's do it Likewise all right gareth.
01:12:13.20
calltocourage
But schlav cha.
