00:01.31
calltocourage
Welcome to the call to courage I'm Gareth and I'm joined today by a brother from downend David Charles welcome to the show bro nice to have you here and we're gonna do the best we can with the construction work happening outside the window at my place. So um, yeah.
00:07.70
David A Charles
Yeah, awesome to be here. Thank you.
00:19.70
calltocourage
Maybe introduce yourself and let us know what keeps you busy in the world brother. What's your your mission that you're serving right now and what gets you out of bed in the morning and.
00:26.50
David A Charles
Beautiful. Thanks Mate. So My mission is to help men embrace strengthen own unlock their masculinity and really step into a place of certainty confidence self-esteem and. Internal balance within themselves. Ultimately I Love working with people around masculine feminine and also Relationships. So My wife and I do a bit of work with together with women as well and we're just stepping into the couple space. Yeah,, that's what keeps me busy.
00:57.55
calltocourage
What does it mean to unlock your masculine. How how would a masculine be locked or.
01:05.20
David A Charles
Awesome! Great Question. So from my perspective. What I see today is a lot of men being disconnected from Masculinity I See a lot of toxic like language around toxic Masculinity. Ah, disconnection from some of the traits that we that are actually very generative such as being very like being assertive having strong boundaries even ambition to a level is starting to be mixed with this this topic of toxic Masculinity. So What I see is that a lot of men disconnect from the the healthy aspects of these through fear of being too masculine too strong too too dominant in ah in a healthy positive sense. So yeah, That's the that's the that's the unlocking. Like the unlocking of these aspects of self sexuality as well. Um, freeing them up. Yeah.
01:57.22
calltocourage
Um.
02:02.11
calltocourage
And how do you see this coming about like what's what is it? That's causing this like what's the general theme that that you see men or young men that grow into men getting disconnected from these parts of their power is there's something that you can point to like what do you? What do you articulate as that's the reason.
02:18.40
David A Charles
Yeah I I actually I see it being a generational thing so there's a book called raising boys. Um and a book called ah manhood and in that book what he talks about is that. Previously before the industrial revolution. The fathers used to be with the sons in the home and there was a disconnection there where the fathers went away to work so we lost a lot of our just our natural role modeling and conditioning from our fathers and from the masculine. So the fathers. Went away and we lost the the learning that we received from our fathers through just spending time with them through osmosis so there was a disconnection there I also see there being a disconnection in terms of feminism as well. And feminism brought about so many positive things to us. But it also in ways started to create some of these narratives around toxic masculinity around um like the shifting in our pop culture the shifting in the depiction of males inside our books. Tv shows our movies even like wife to wife of like you know the depiction of the bumbling father. Um like what I see in so many movies is we've got sort of 2 main characters or main archetypes of the of the masculine of man. It's like the bumbling father or the tyrant.
03:49.47
David A Charles
Like the the evil egotistical is often. Ah you know quite a strong dominant masculine figure but we don't see many of those qualities like the strong dominant confident in a healthy role model. It's It's reasonably rare. Um, apart from in our superheroes but Also. Sometimes in the superheroes as the time goes on they turn more into bumbling sort of Idiots. So Yeah I feel like there's so many different factors. There's also like the idea of the you know in the spiritual world. The feminine rising as well and I really see this as a time of creating.
04:11.51
calltocourage
Are.
04:26.35
David A Charles
Healthy and restoring healthy masculinity that's grounded connected that has integrated those aspects of femininity such as like receptiveness to the body connection to the body letting go of control and yet we're being asked to step into a new a new way. That we haven't had before.
04:45.43
calltocourage
And what was your relationship with your father like how does how does your path of integrating your and unlocking your own masculinity look.
04:53.60
David A Charles
Awesome! Great question. So my dad was a very hard worker. He ran his own business and he sacrificed so much like when I was growing up I did have this feeling of like where's my dad. And he wasn't very present. He was very stuck in his own world and as much as I love my father he was just doing the best that he had you know he his dad also wasn't very present. Um, there was a bit of sort of alcoholism in the family as well. So my dad was just. He wanted to make change but he also was just deeply rooted in in some negative traits and some negative beliefs about himself and about being man in the world like he just worked worked worked worked work. That's where he got his value from so we ended up having a shift when I was became an adult. And I started doing personal development because I actually started to recognize all that he'd given and he started actually providing a lot more positive affirmation to me we had ah we had a beautiful. We had a beautiful coming together. He passed away in 2019 just after we. Met actually about 2 2 3 weeks afterwards and we knew he was sick for about a year and in that period I feel like I'm going I'm going deep into it straight away but he we had a beautiful conversation because we knew for about a year he wasn't going to live. He had asbestosis.
06:06.23
calltocourage
And.
06:13.30
calltocourage
Comfort.
06:23.90
David A Charles
And we just had some super powerful. We'd had a big healing for sort of 5 years leading up to that and then from that moment there was just a. We just got each other on a whole new level I thanked him I thanked him so deeply for all that he'd sacrificed for us. No one had ever said that anything and anything like that to him. Like from my family at all and um, yeah, he like he broke down in that moment. It was just it was such a powerful. Yeah, it was such a powerful moment and there was this sense of him handing the torch over to me to kind of steward and and and lead the family. Um, so.
06:47.37
calltocourage
And while awake.
07:00.40
David A Charles
Yeah, we've certainly been on a journey. We've never been at sort of like opposite ends I wouldn't say we certainly had conflict. He was a very good positive role model around being truthful and around integrity I used to play up a little bit when I was younger and he always held me to account for that which I'm so grateful for and yeah.
07:17.22
calltocourage
Yes, and yes.
07:20.26
David A Charles
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, um, um, do you have any other questions for me because I feel like I touched so so much on that or.
07:28.72
calltocourage
There's loads to go that go go down there brother. Yeah I was gonna ask you one of them is there's a gift in knowing that your your father's gonna transition you get that opportunity. You actually get the chance to do that. What is what is the shadow side of knowing that there's a. A fine art Timeline. What is the what's the downside of knowing that you've only got a certain amount of time left except the acceptance of it or is it all just good.
07:54.62
David A Charles
Ah, so yeah, certainly not all good I I feel quite fortunate. Actually there's a um I heard it afterwards Jordan Petersen talks about that the somewhat like the role of a man should be that he's he's sort of like the the leader or the strongest. Person at his father's funeral to like step into like the stewarding of the family and I feel very fortunate that that kind of happened naturally through a lot of the men's work that I did I didn't have that frame coming into it. But I noticed that that's what was coming up for me.
08:14.51
calltocourage
Movement.
08:30.58
David A Charles
So I so I see the the shadow side of like there were times where I was almost completely emotionalist and I was kind of observing myself going like I'm totally balanced my dad just died I am completely neutral and I see the shadow side of suppressing the emotions I wasn't suppressing in that moment but I had to be very.
08:40.84
calltocourage
I.
08:49.68
David A Charles
Aware that when I was in front of my family.. There was only little spurts of emotion that was coming up for me and ah it felt naturally that I was holding the space for my sister and my mom and if I was to like reflecting back on it I can see there's sort of like a primal aspect where it's like if I broke down who was going to look after the funeral. Decisions that needed to be made them emotionally. So Yeah I I articulated to them I'm going to create my own space to have my own grieving process and that's what I did So. The shadow side is not creating a grieving process and also having expectations about how that that. Grieving process is going to look for each person. It's going to be look look different person to person. It's going to look different in my belief male to female as well. Um, yeah, yeah, it's a power powerful powerful initiation. Yeah.
09:35.82
calltocourage
So.
09:42.35
calltocourage
There's so much there I'd like to offer something to anybody listening to this that doesn't have the gift of knowing that the timeline is inevitably coming that they have the opportunity to speak to a parent or a father in this case, What would you suggest that they use as a framework to have that conversation.
09:44.00
David A Charles
Um, yeah.
09:59.12
David A Charles
Me.
09:59.56
calltocourage
Without knowing you know like our parents could transition at any day and as shitty as it would be knowing that they've got something terminal that the clock is ticking at some level The clock's ticking anyway. So how would you so you suggest somebody has that conversation with ah with a parrot before their transition.
10:12.63
David A Charles
Amazing. So as a frame again like I did know that my dad was passing away. So I I was very particular about asking him certain questions and so so much I just feel we we scratched the surface it was actually the day before he went into hospital where he was. Incoherent I'd been asking ah a friend of mine. Can you send me a list of these questions that you asked your father to get to know him better. It arrived to Thursday night and I was like cool I'm going to ask him Friday morning my dad woke up was incoherent went to hospital basically almost died on the friday.
10:49.79
calltocourage
Wealth. Okay.
10:51.38
David A Charles
And then was incoherent to the Wednesday so I never got to ask him the questions that I really want to I feel like we just scratched the surface. So my my encouragement is for people to write a list of questions and just to begin a conversation doesn't have to happen in one conversation. But. You know my data took a little bit to kind of warm him into this combat I actually kind of cornered him in ah when he was in hospital I'm just going to go and sit there for you know 3 hours he can't go anywhere so we just started talking about his life and about his challenges and.
11:18.72
calltocourage
Of.
11:28.38
David A Charles
Yeah, just ask the questions that you really want to know like I wish that I had asked him What do what advice? do you have for me around being a husband or choosing a partner I hadn't met my wife then what? what? What do you recommend to me what what lessons do you have from me.
11:38.71
calltocourage
And.
11:47.50
David A Charles
And it doesn't mean that I have to take on everything that he speaks about with Gospel but just to create a deeper reflection for myself. So yeah, what questions like what questions about the path. What ah like a career or business or what advice do you have in career business. What relationships friendships. Yeah. What would you have done differently if you had your time again that those sort of questions. Yeah.
12:09.35
calltocourage
Um, what do you think he would have said if you'd asked him about the relationship question.
12:12.37
David A Charles
Wolf.
12:24.76
David A Charles
I've I've pondered this quite a fair bit. He he he and my mom had a very challenging relationship and I feel like almost certainly he would have just said about something like you really choose your partner well and and.
12:30.87
calltocourage
And.
12:41.62
David A Charles
And told me about how much of ah, an important decision. It is yeah he he like I can kind of see that a lot of his life. He was wasn't super present with us because like my his relationship with my mom was very challenging so I can see how he kind of. Went and removed himself from that situation. She would argue with him a lot about just tiny little things. So Yeah in this moment it would certainly be something about choose your partner well and peace in the home is really important something like that. Yeah.
13:03.58
calltocourage
I.
13:18.87
calltocourage
Beautiful man. Yeah so good I have um, a framework that that I used for a conversation to have with my mother um around a similar thing where I recognized that our relationship as I was also kind of a difficult teenager.
13:20.13
David A Charles
Yeah.
13:35.30
calltocourage
And my mom was wanting to sort of control to protect and there was a part of me that just wanted to rebel to have my own space and freedom and so we went through this kind of tumultuous time growing up and um as we got into adulthood we sort of became I would say like like amiable. But we would have these conversations that were pretty much at surface level and if I reflected on the relationships that I have in my life and how I value them I wouldn't have valued this one because we don't go really deep and I don't really want to have connections with people that I don't touch really important things. We just talk about the weather and other people that we know and so. I had the opportunity and I haven't yet done it with my dad but framing the conversation as a desire for me as like hey mom I really want to get to know you better? Are you open to having this conversation I'd like to ask you some questions about your life in a frame. That's not. Mother and son if we could put that apart for aside for a while and just let me chat to you about things that I haven't yet been able to ask you about because we don't know how long we're going to have together the frame that ah then used was asked her to make a timeline of her life. And to talk me through her life and allow me to ask questions about various things as she explained her experience to me and then she was allowed to do the same I wrote to tamlan of my life and she got to ask her questions in a separate we did it on Zoom because she's in South Africa but anyway the point of it was.
14:58.23
calltocourage
2 really fucking amazing conversations where I got to ask all the things that I never really knew about my mother before she got to hear some of the stuff that she had suspected like as a mother but didn't know because of the the role that she played you know, being that that part of my life and um the end result has ah been such a. Beautiful deepening of our of our connection and our and our friendship almost. We have a friendship now like we we chat and we get to talk about stuff at a different level. We still ask about the weather and you know common contact but it's been such a powerful way to be able to to have this conversation and I think my suggestion for anybody doing it is to. Is to frame it as your own desire like this is something that I want and this is the reason why because I think it would make our relationship deeper and yeah, I'm really grateful that I that I had the courage to do that because it wasn't an easy thing to do you know to switch these roles that we've played for our entire lives for one another into something. Ah, call it sister time. We basically went into sister time and gossiped about first boyfriends and did you have other levers before dead and all the things and so yeah stuff that we never really would have had access to.
16:05.68
David A Charles
That's cool. Yeah I haven't had this conversation with with my mom so this is inspiring me to think about like how would I How would I go about that question. There's certain things where yeah I probably wouldn't ask her. Like some of the lover stuff. But yeah, yeah, there's certainly certainly invitation for me in that as Well. My relationship with my mom has been much more challenging than my than my dad. So There's yeah yeah, yeah, my.
16:23.65
calltocourage
Um, and.
16:29.71
calltocourage
Um, and.
16:32.28
calltocourage
Um, okay.
16:37.33
David A Charles
Yeah I'm I'm like the challenging there's something. There's something in our whether or not it's like our souls have come to you know, ah stretch each other for me, it's like this constant like acceptance deep acceptance. Ah yeah, yeah, amazing.
16:48.50
calltocourage
Mean what's the challenge for you there. How do you see that? What's what's the lesson that you're learning besides acceptance through what.
16:56.70
David A Charles
Yeah, she she's She's very very fear driven. Um, very fear driven in terms of in terms of like on the scale of sort of like fear worry Doubt. Um Judgment. She she is one of the most fearful people that I've ever met and I say that with like a lot of love. But she's she's yeah, she's very fear driven. Um, very emotionally challenged like any sort of any sort of emotion comes up for her. She.
17:20.57
calltocourage
Then waft.
17:34.71
David A Charles
She throws her hands up and kind of waves them about and then kind of goes and has time by herself. She's like I can't talk I can't talk So there's There's always like I've wanted to create this deeper connection with her and to a degree there. There has been an unwillingness at least in the ways that I've gone about it before. And like I've spent a lot of time like in personal process with my relationship with my mom and also I'm trying to build more of a bridge but there's yeah, there's a emotion deeply scares her and so but I can see how. Using this conversation as well about the timeline could be a beautiful ah step forward because I haven't used that frame before I've used frames of like I want to connect with you more I want to talk with you more. And yeah, so it'll be. It'll be.. It'll be interesting.
18:25.48
calltocourage
Um, I'm happy.
18:28.48
David A Charles
Between her like so I've got a younger sister and an older half-brother. And yeah, the dynamics are so different between my 2 siblings versus with me. It's like that we've we've had some sort of almost like soul contract. Um our life like.
18:45.46
calltocourage
Ah.
18:46.90
David A Charles
Yeah, the similar challenge I have similar challenges with her is what my dad did. So yeah, yeah, cool stuff. Mate cool stuff. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't it I appreciate you sharing about it with being.
18:52.95
calltocourage
Um, while the yeah.
19:02.98
David A Charles
Being with your mom because it wasn't even on my radar to do that with her. It had been previously but just hearing your description of that has inspired me to to get curious about how I could have that conversation I've tried to touch on it in different ways before but it hasn't been something that's landed. Well so I appreciate that. Thank you? Yeah yeah.
19:17.74
calltocourage
Um, yeah Google nories blue. Let's let's let's cycle back to what I heard you say earlier in the conversation. You came to personal development early. What.
19:22.85
David A Charles
Yeah, awesome.
19:30.40
calltocourage
How does that happen. How do you certainly make that decision or what's the catalyst for you making a decision that personal development is part of your path.
19:36.18
David A Charles
Awesome! So from quite a young age I was involved with scouting and also with a lot of leadership within my within school so I did a lot of sort of outdoor education leadership stuff. So the personal development was always kind of intertwined from sort of yeah 11 Eleven twelve that was intertwined my dad also used to do quite a lot of it when he was younger when he was sort of in his twenty s he was very forward thinking type of man. So in some ways it was kind of like embedded yeah embedded in scouts embedded in school with the leadership program embedded a little bit with my. My dad very loosely, never spoke about it but at 19 the reason it came about was because I was having a really challenging relationship at the time and my partner went to a personal development program like ah, a week. A free weekend. Sort of seminar workshop. Loved it ended up enrolling for a longer one and I had this sense of like we're in a lot of trouble here and I need to do something and I didn't know what that something was. We tried many different things psychologists counseling that sort of stuff and yeah, that was that was the beginning that was really the beginning for me.
20:48.26
calltocourage
Ah.
20:52.40
calltocourage
And what? what's your path been. What's your path been and know you've done some and Nlp and a couple things like what are the things that have supported you the most and yeah, what do you vied with in terms of your your process.
20:52.31
David A Charles
Yeah, so it's about 19 and just straight in.
21:03.60
David A Charles
Yeah, so initially when I started it was more on the Nlp side of things and sort of more. Yeah so neurolinguistic programming. So the way that I relate to it personally is the.
21:10.22
calltocourage
So can you explain what Nl peers for those who don't yet.
21:21.94
David A Charles
Sort of that our our thoughts our mind create our reality that we delete distort um generalize like different thing like we have essentially a set of beliefs that control our construct and the way that we navigate through our life and so for me the way that I've related to It's a lot about self-talk. Um, and like there's also timeline therapy where you go back to previous times in your life and that sort of stuff. But for me my experience of and Nlp has been It's much more from ah a ah mind consciousness type level that created an initial shift and I actually.
21:46.58
calltocourage
Yeah.
21:58.30
David A Charles
Created quite a lot of success from using Nlp I I got into trading it when I was about 24 and I was just purely using sort of mind power and nlp bitter sort of hypnosis sort of stuff and that created a lot of success but there was still deep. Emotional stuff that I hadn't touched on so for me, the deeper shifts have been learning how to feel my emotions where I'm not in repression or reactivity where I can connect with my emotions be with them and. And also a deeper spiritual connection. They've really been the two things that have created the shift.
22:40.80
calltocourage
Talk me through this up for those who maybe don't know what this is how do how do you talk yourself into being a good trader what does that process look like what is how do you use Nlp to be successful. Well.
22:49.12
David A Charles
Yeah, awesome, Great. So I would before I trade it and I would also do this outside of trading I would set I'd have a ah list of affirmations and I would sit down and I would meditate and I would replay over in my mind trades going. Well. And I would say things to myself like I'm a successful Trader. Um I make consistent profits I am calm Cool collected and I would just repeat. They would be my mantras that I would say over and over and over and over again to myself in like a deeply dropped in state.
23:18.50
calltocourage
Um, and.
23:23.64
calltocourage
Um, of harm.
23:25.55
David A Charles
So I would do that before a trading session I would do that during a trading session if I noticed there were some negative thoughts going on and then I would do that sometime later in the day as well and and also like I just know what type of trades are going to work I just know and so I would I would say a lot of these things to myself.
23:36.54
calltocourage
Um, and.
23:40.63
calltocourage
Okay, okay.
23:45.41
David A Charles
And yeah, that was that was the foundation. Yeah, that was I became with the the teacher that I was learning from who taught around the world I was um I was either 1 number 1 or number 2 in Australia for his for his students The only thing I was doing differently was that that was it. We all learned the same strategies. Yeah I really pinpoint my success in that in that trading to that? yeah.
24:04.97
calltocourage
Wow.
24:12.35
calltocourage
Oh thank you for sharing that? Yeah and then you became sort of financially free at a pretty young age as it just put it as a result of this.
24:21.79
David A Charles
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely so I worked as an electrician when I left school I loved working with my hands but I also wanted to like I loved physics I loved sort of engineering and it kind of felt like a good balance where I got to think about you know. Electrical engineering but also work with my hands. So I dove into electrical work and I had 3 companies that actually the first one went bankrupt the second one ran out of work. The third one went bankrupt and each time it was like I'm not meant to be doing this long term but I had saved quite a lot of money.
24:55.63
calltocourage
Um.
24:56.74
David A Charles
And I was going I wanted to get into property development that didn't feel quite right and I got into trading and yeah I was just working as a trader essentially I was working very little I was working about half an hour ish a day something like that and sometimes 15 minutes a day.
25:11.28
calltocourage
1
25:15.36
David A Charles
And I had that experience of 25 just not I mean to go to work I had so much time that gave me more time for personal development but it also sent me on this big deep wood journey that was like ah the beginning of the deep descent because I had so much time and I had all these emotions that were starting. That had the space to rise up and I was starting to question more deeply like why am I here? What's what's the purpose in life and and that sort of thing Alison Armstrong who wrote a book called keys to the kingdom. She talks about the the moving from late prince through the tunnel to king. And I kind of went through that sort of cycle of I'd kind of built this thing that I didn't really need to spend a lot of time doing had all this time and it's like the deeper questions of life came forward.
26:06.21
calltocourage
How do you How do you do that? How do you sit with your emotions in a family that seemed to be suppressing their emotions everywhere around them. What's the what's the strategy is it just the fact that you had this strong grounding in Nlp that you were ah. A solid human or is it is there something specifically that allows you to feel these emotions and the reason I'm asking. This question is I think what I'm noticing in men's work is a lot of men are not first of all encouraged to feel certain emotions or you know we label certain emotions as good and others as bad and so we want to feel the good ones and. Suppress or just not even touch on the on the bad ones. But I think we drain a lot of power there. So and ah maybe we can get into this because I'm sure this is potentially what's in your work as well. But what's the what's the method for feeling your emotions I mean it may sound simple because it's probably a very natural thing. But how do you find the space. Actually sit with it rather than avoid it because there is a tendency had you not been prepared to feel it to busy yourself with the next project or start another business to avoid the feeling so how do you How do you sit and reconcile that part of yourself.
27:09.68
David A Charles
And I did do that I did do that I'd I'd like I'd immerse myself in a project and then sort of like two months I just went on this cycle immerse myself I built like a like a competition spec fall drive and so I would like immerse myself into like head on thinking about these projects.
27:18.40
calltocourage
Ah.
27:29.46
David A Charles
All the time and then sort of like two months in the the feelings would start to arise and you know my sleep would start getting bit shed and yeah there was this cycle and yeah, the the sort of the.
27:31.22
calltocourage
Ah.
27:40.59
calltocourage
Um, and.
27:46.43
David A Charles
The emotion, The negative emotions would rise up So what really helped me was beginning to tap into my body and connect more deeply to my body and sensation I feel like that's a real a very strong grounding and a very strong path forward for men to begin to feel our emotions because we can be so.
27:47.95
calltocourage
I I.
28:05.50
David A Charles
Like I was somewhat numb from sort of the the neck down and I would try and process my emotions think about my emotions think about how could I move out of them rather than just feel and and be with them. So yeah, the the beginning for me was starting to.
28:06.92
calltocourage
And an as for.
28:24.44
David A Charles
Tap into sensation and tap into my body I did ah a um, feminine embodiment workshop program that was the beginning of of that for me I don't recommend I don't necessarily recommend that for men to go and do because there was some other.
28:40.82
calltocourage
Nothing.
28:43.58
David A Charles
Sort of like complications that I experience from doing that program and ah, but the core thing that I learned was just tapping into my body my breath. Um, yeah, dropping into my embodiment more deeply being able to feel.
28:45.87
calltocourage
Okay.
28:57.80
calltocourage
Yeah, Thank you are I have a similar story which is what I've felt in a another version of my life where I was also not feeling any of the uncomfortable feelings not looking at any of this. The. Things that were triggering inside me not aware of what my wounds were and I had the same thing I was like numb from this part but it sort of stopped just below just above my genitals meaning I was fucking hyperactive in my head and hyperactive in my genitals but nothing in the middle and so this is where everything would rest and. Yeah, for me one of the ways to really come through that place is to really understand how to be able to speak about what's genuinely going on. So in addition to the actual embodiment practices and some emotional movement practices the ability to be able to speak from the heart meaning I can actually sit with you and say hey bro This is exactly how I'm feeling. Not tell a story that I'm making up in my head but genuinely tune into what's happening in my body and to be able to Articulate. It is what courage is to speak from the heart and when that starts to happen the heart starts to open and you open the channel between the head and and the sex center so that the energy starts to move through.
30:08.12
David A Charles
Um, and.
30:08.15
calltocourage
In a more you know a more clear way so that you're able to actually be with what's genuinely alive and not to judge it. So yeah, amazing to to hear you say that I'd love to hear what are the complications of the feminine initiation you chose.
30:17.75
David A Charles
Me. Yet.
30:24.34
calltocourage
And that's kind of an interesting tool for a dude to make that decision. But yeah, what was some of the things that was it specifically for men or you just find yourself in a place of wanting to try something different or.
30:28.60
David A Charles
Awesome! Yeah I'll touch on that in a moment I just 1 thing that I just wanted to yeah speak to you were talking about the speaking and I feel like that's a beautiful way to.
30:42.60
calltocourage
Um, then then.
30:45.55
David A Charles
You know it can be a beautiful way for men to start to connect to that to express the energy to move the energy to give it to you know there's there's sort of like a channel and yeah, it's powerful to sit with other people other men and just have that that space to begin to move that energy. It can actually be.
30:49.46
calltocourage
Are.
31:05.60
David A Charles
You know some of the deeper stuff that I've touched on I couldn't touch on it just by myself I had to work with someone or I had to be in a space with other men and that gave um that helped to liberate it that helped to move it so I wanted to speak to that. The second thing that I wanted to speak to was.
31:18.61
calltocourage
And.
31:24.73
David A Charles
That I'm very passionate about men finding emotional courage and I actually love the frame of that we as men are being asked to step into emotional courage rather than vulnerability and for me, there's ah, there's a real.. There's a difference in the frequency. Vulnerability can be powerful as a man but I don't see it as being sort of like the ultimate end goal that resonates with me for me. It's more the emotional courage of you know I'm courageous enough to meet what's going on inside of myself to to be sovereign to to be a man that's Like. Upright Strong Spine able to feel everything that's going on able to share that with others when it's appropriate. Um, yeah so I actually love that this you know this podcast is called the call to courage because that's one of the things that I love to speak about is the call to emotional courage for men.
32:08.22
calltocourage
I Love that.
32:17.67
calltocourage
Beautiful I Love that I haven't heard it framed that way. But yeah, and sorry just to come back while we're still here. Do you see? Do you see that It's really just a function of linguistics and frame that points to what is essentially sometimes described as vulnerability or do you see them as different.
32:24.10
David A Charles
Yes.
32:33.96
David A Charles
I see them as different for me like as an example when I was doing the feminine embodiment work I saw that as a path to vulnerability where there was you know I see a almost like a younger aspect to myself when I connect to vulnerability I see Like. Ah, vulnerable side of me that needs some form of almost like protection. Um, that's that's seeking safety. Um, and I think that's a powerful thing for men to have access to also to understand how to meet the vulnerability and. As an example in their partner but I see yeah vulnerability is more of a path of like feminine femininity and emotional courage as being sort of like the the masculine side of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because where that kind of comes from is.
33:26.55
calltocourage
Um, awesome. Well.
33:31.20
David A Charles
When I think about I love this frame of and I'm being mindful that we've got that that point around the feminine embodiment. Yeah yeah, so I love the frame of 3 stages of relationships. The first one being codedependent and then the next one being independent.
33:35.44
calltocourage
Keep it going brother. Yeah better work out back.
33:48.80
David A Charles
And then the next one being interdependent. So this sense of the the last stage being that we're we're connected. We're sovereign individuals but we give the gift to we give the gift of ourselves to the other person and in regards to masculinity and femininity I see.
34:02.39
calltocourage
And her.
34:08.15
David A Charles
What resonates with me is that you know I as a man my greatest gift to my partner is my masculinity and her greatest gift to me is her femininity and that's what helps me to create the space for her to drop more deeply into surrender and to trust and to. To let go of control isn't me moving into Vulnerability. It's me stepping into emotional courage and that's that's one frame that that kind of helps me around what am I being asked for.. It's not necessarily that she's asking me to.
34:31.78
calltocourage
Okay, got it.
34:43.60
David A Charles
To really connect down into my vulnerability but it's it's more about me having emotional resonance connection to myself. Um emotional courage to meet what's going on in her as well and to be with her to create that space to hold that space when it when it's appropriate and and that sort of thing. Yeah.
35:00.27
calltocourage
Yeah, that's beautifulm. We haven't spoken for a long time. We met in a men's retreats like in 2019 and it's like our paths have been sort of running parallel in some ways and our work has been similar boss have been on a deep journey with my partner and.
35:05.94
David A Charles
But.
35:17.31
calltocourage
Exploring the powerful container that is a transformational relationship and what does it mean to show up and I loved what you said there I want to share one of the things that's a theme for me is recognizing that actually me showing up in my fullness for my partner is actually ah a function of this inner marriage where I'm both. Strong masculine but also have access to the feminine elements of what it means to be connected to my emotions to be in trust and surrender and to be all of those and really for my ability to be able to show up in my fullness is to be able to be. Solid in myself I call it inner marriage like this place of both my masculine and feminine being solid first and I think how I've been coaching people to so to support themselves to find partnership is to recognize that they are pretty often patterns where we're outsourcing our feminine specifically as men meaning. Um, a dude I'm like this I do these things but I don't connect to trust Surrender vulnerability emotional stuff and then I seek that in my partner but it automatically creates this like loop of me projecting all the things that I don't quite have in myself into my partner. So yeah, my. My work to get to show up in my fullness with my partner is to recognize that I am full already and I don't I'm not wanting to be code-dependent and I actually don't want to be independent I want to be interdependent and that is recognizing that I'm this analogy sometimes of people like.
36:39.52
calltocourage
Relationship must be fifty fifty no a relationship is 10100 you've got to come in your fullness because if you only come with 50 you're waiting for your partner to bring the other fifty and somehow you get into this loop of I'm not enough without you which creates the codependency but the the interdependency is like I'm I'm solid with me. I'm loving this connection I'm hoping that it lasts forever. But if it doesn't I'm still gonna be okay I'm not wobbling with that and I'm not living every single day in fear that you would leave because I'm okay with myself and I show up for myself in this places first and so yeah I love that I love that frame that you use for for holding that unlock the emotional courage. Think that's ah, that's a powerful word that I'm definitely going to use our credit you in the footnotes.
37:18.41
David A Charles
Yeah, awesome. Yeah I love the what you were talking about like the you know I was hearing when you were talking about the inner marriage I really see that as being like the the independence like that Amy and I when we first met each other we were both in that independent phase and that's. That's meant that you know the the chances of us sliding into codependency is much less because it's like I'm 100% responsible for me and I feel like the the jump and what I was hearing you saying as well is like I see interdependence being like I'm responsible for me and I'm also responsible for like my partner and how.
37:43.95
calltocourage
And had.
37:57.50
David A Charles
Like she's experiencing and we were both in that independent when we met each other of like I'm responsible for me, you do you? It's almost yeah, there's almost like this sense of separation there where the independents like I'm fully connected fully whole within myself. And I'm also responsible and caring for my partner and what she's going through and and and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, go. It's ah it's an interesting story actually because we met in March March Twenty Twenty she
38:22.62
calltocourage
How did you guys meet? what's ah, what's her jam I don't know anything about this being.
38:33.91
David A Charles
Originally from our Adelaide and we met via Facebook she tells this really funny story actually that she was scrolling through Facebook and um or it just like I popped up as a friend request and she was like that's. That's the man that I'm going to marry. That's the man that I've been talking about soon. She so like she literally just saw my profile pitch she was like shaved head um shaved head kind of angry looking. Um, ah, big arm muscles.
38:49.81
calltocourage
And well.
39:07.62
David A Charles
Drives fast cars. She's like that's that's literally what she said and she actually said that it when we got married as well. I Yeah yeah, totally. Ah, so yeah, we we started talking then and.
39:12.90
calltocourage
Um, isn't that most fucking australians.
39:25.83
David A Charles
Yeah, we had ah we had a dance over social media for for nine months and I I had kind of just um I had completed a relationship in sort of like the end of 20 and that for me was like a a flag in the ground moment of like I'm never going to have a relationship like that again. And it was just like nut cycle is 100% completed here and it was just a deeper knowing of like the standards that I wanted to have in my relationship. So I knew that I wanted to have friendship as the foundation of my relationships moving forward. So we started talking underneath that.
39:51.30
calltocourage
Um.
40:04.38
David A Charles
Sort of that frame and I led yeah I led the sort of the relationship to blossom into a deep friendship. There was obviously attraction. But I really was very specific about keeping away from you know sexting and doing all that kind of stuff because there was attraction. We also couldn't see each other for nine months I was in Melbourne most lockdown place in the world.
40:18.82
calltocourage
Um, yeah.
40:24.80
David A Charles
She was in Adelaide. So we yeah so we couldn't actually go and see each other and yeah in in December I I drove over to to meet her for a week and didn't know what was going to sort of come from it if there was going to be that resonance when we met each other in person and.
40:25.10
calltocourage
Um, ah this is during the lockdown. Okay, yeah, okay.
40:42.81
David A Charles
Essentially walked through the front door and said there she and we're ba. Yeah, we've we've been through. We've been through like a few different journeys of living in Adelaide living living in Queensland living in Melbourne were in Melbourne currently about to move over to Adelaide. And yeah, it's it's been a.
40:46.85
calltocourage
Um, wow.
40:59.20
calltocourage
Beautiful. What did she do? What's her mission I mean you guys working together now is she also on this path of supporting and guiding others.
41:01.57
David A Charles
And a cool ride? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so she yeah so she traditionally she's ah been initiated and into a lineage based in Peru like ah, a um. Um, they don't actually remember the I can't remember the exact lineage name right now but essentially it's around shamanism like the the traditional the traditional peruvian sort of shamanism. Um.
41:32.30
calltocourage
Um, this man.
41:36.20
calltocourage
Fun.
41:38.55
David A Charles
So she's been trained as ah as a cacao ceremonialist and and that's a lot of the work she does She does a lot of work with people around connecting them to their inner self to their heart. She works primarily with almost exclusively with women actually just around connecting to their hearts connecting them to their sense of god.
41:51.88
calltocourage
Okay.
41:58.48
David A Charles
Ah, to their sense of yeah, love and devotion for themselves for other people. Yeah, we make it. We make a beautiful, a beautiful pairing in the work that we do. Yeah, she's taught me so much about love she.
42:02.37
calltocourage
And.
42:10.72
calltocourage
What has she taught you.
42:17.27
David A Charles
Is just a ball of love and she just she loves so deeply. Um, she devotes herself so deeply to the path of love and being loving of others and and also to listening to what. God The Universe wants for her like she's just so deeply she she devotes herself to it she she prays a lot. She's in deep communion and so she's taught me a lot about a lot about that as well being in deep communion about listening about loving others. Yeah.
42:41.46
calltocourage
Are.
42:52.30
calltocourage
So.
42:52.91
David A Charles
Also like loving myself. We've we've been on a deep healing journey together in terms of allowing the full force of our love for each other to kind of land like allowing her love her immense love to really land for me and for me to receive that it's been. You know a constant feeling of cracking open to like how much more love and her experiences that as well similar.
43:22.92
calltocourage
Wow! Thank you for thanks for dropping into that to um I'd love what was the what was the never again theme of the lost relationship.
43:24.38
David A Charles
Um, yeah, yeah.
43:31.78
David A Charles
Awesome! So the never again theme was the woman that I was seeing she was just very unwilling like you spoke about the hundred percent like the hundred percent responsibility and.
43:44.59
calltocourage
And.
43:49.94
David A Charles
There was very like very little responsibility. The the the moment where it was like completely nut. This is done my dad died like two days before and we're out at dinner and. She was speaking to me and I was just kind of I was in sort of a liminal space like I wasn't completely grounded landed I was like well my whole world is shifting. Um I wasn't feeling like super yeah wasn't feeling super landed and grounded and.
44:10.76
calltocourage
And.
44:20.51
David A Charles
I was enjoying the time with her but essentially a dog to walk past as she was talking and the dog jumped up and I patted her and she lost it about not being present with her while she was speaking and she had a massive sort of blow up about that and that was just the line in the sand for me of like nut. My dad's died like two days before this is totally unacceptable behavior even when I was describing to her about you know my dad my dad's just died and yeah, I'm having a little bit of trouble being. She was just she was just on it. So that was that was the line in this and I've I've had many challenging relationships that have led up I've had 1.
44:44.39
calltocourage
Um.
44:51.42
calltocourage
The number.
44:58.76
David A Charles
Long-term relationship that was really beautiful that just was you know we we came to completion had a few sort of challenging ones and then my wife my wife Amy which has been a beautiful coming together that was the that she came as a result of me going no more. Like I um I choose a woman that's willing that's willing to take 100 % responsibility for her parts. That's willing to do the work and yeah, yeah.
45:30.18
calltocourage
What's the what's the I'm blessed to still have my father alive what shifts in a man's life when his father transitions.
45:38.59
David A Charles
It was like literally the day after he died I literally had this feeling of I'm the man of the family now and I noticed that you know at the moment where we're selling the family home and I noticed that it's. Like I have an older brother but he didn't take up that Mantle. It wasn't real I don't feel like it was ever meant to yeah, he's kind of been a little bit separate from the family. So what what I see it being is yeah I was past the mantor and there was there's been a mixture of that. It's naturally fallen on me. But also that I had to choose it I had to. There's been times where you know my mum and my sister want to kind of take charge of what's going on or like around the and I'm just like there's there's there needs to be 1 leader for for for this process to go simply and easily and and I'm going to lead this and.
46:32.78
calltocourage
Um, and I said.
46:34.87
David A Charles
When I do that from a place of connection place from Heart I Both I feel them both relax and so yeah, we've got a big carriage sale coming up over the weekend. So that's been very much about me kind of setting the plan and and leading how we're going to handle it and that sort of stuff obviously taking taking. Um.
46:39.86
calltocourage
The.
46:53.71
David A Charles
Consideration and that kind of stuff of their thoughts but that's been that has been my experience literally the day after he died it was like yep, you're the leader of the family now and that's been yeah, a mix of me naturally stepping into that and also having to choose it at times where um, yeah.
47:00.98
calltocourage
Are.
47:11.16
David A Charles
Where there's maybe been a little bit of challenge or conflict in the family.
47:13.13
calltocourage
Yeah, you know David Dida's book the way of the superior man 1 of his lessons in the book is to meditate and have this practice of living your life as though your father has died. You know the idea of being a man because many men and you've done a lot of work clearly. And started at 21 that got you to a place where you also had the opportunity to have the conversation with your dad before he died but there's something about a lot of men that are either living in their father's shadow or not fully stepping up in responsibility because they feel that their father still has. Rain or power or something like that and it holds their back through a lot of the ways in their life and um sometimes also seeking validation. You know working everything in my life to make sure that I can signal things to my dad and I I definitely have this. Um, a part of me is still like some of the decisions that I make I'm like will my dad think this is a good idea or something like that and yeah, it's an energy leak because it it takes me away out of my my authentic truth and obviously there's going to be a natural desire to want to impress the the man that was the the rock in my life and um, yeah, but it's ah it's a. It's a powerful thing to get to and I think a lot of men have said that you know the day that their father transitions as painful as it is. There's some part of them that suddenly comes alive because they now have to step up like you said or they suddenly don't need the validation of this person that's transition and now it's their chance to do things but in some ways if you don't step into that early.
48:41.54
calltocourage
You can waste a lot of years seeking the validation of your father and us. Yeah, interesting to hear you speak to that exact point which is like yeah I now have to do it. There's that sense of like no one else is coming to save us. We have that daddy like the Van protected depending on the relationship that you have with your dad that perhaps things will always be okay when he is around and then. 1 day. He's not i.
49:01.20
David A Charles
Yeah, exactly right? Yeah, there was certainly a shift in that of what as well. I've got to you know I got to step I've got to step up I got to kind of put the foot like take the foot off the brake a little bit and just fully step forward I also turn 30 around. Ah. Like ah maybe a month prior three weeks prior to that as well. So yeah, there was a lot of sort of initiations that were going on at the at the same time. Yeah.
49:19.59
calltocourage
And his hand.
49:28.41
calltocourage
What do you see as ah as a challenge for for modern men. What's what's got you onto the path of wanting to to support men Specifically What do you see as some of the the major challenges or themes that we're dancing with.
49:38.38
David A Charles
Awesome.
49:45.61
David A Charles
I see that there is a lot of personal development opportunity in the world today and in saying that I feel like a lot of personal development. Is actually quite feminine in nature and I get very curious about yeah, just the the industry and and the opportunities that men have to step into their own truest. Expression of masculinity and I find there being a mix of you know, a lot of personal development spaces are filled with a lot of women you go to a lot of workshops and that kind of stuff and there a lot of workshops are maybe co-gendered but there's depending on which space you're in but there's there's typically let's say on average. 80 % 70% women um twenty thirty percent men and I don't actually I don't so much see that as there being some some of the women that I speak to get really frustrated about men and they're like oh they're not willing to do the person of element I actually don't believe that I believe that there's just.
50:46.95
calltocourage
Ah.
51:03.12
David A Charles
There's not that many places that men resonate with to go and do their personal development and so I see one of the challenges is that yeah a lot of personal development being quite quite feminine in in my belief in nature but also some of the other options they've got are. Almost men telling men how to be men and I don't like that like men like you need to be hard. You need to be Strong. You need to be like all these things and yes to having capacity to be in those aspects but we're not 1 ne-dimensal some of the personal development I see for men is quite 1 ne-di dimensional in Nature. It's like oh'll, be. Be more stoic or be be stronger. Be be that fucking that strong dominant leader or whatever and so one of the challenges that I see is that Yeah, there isn't too many options out there for men to do very deep work. Um specifically around their masculinity.
51:49.80
calltocourage
Um, certainly.
52:00.95
David A Charles
And to find and uncover who they are as a man rather than being told of what a man is um I also see it as a lot of the personal development that we have is still in some way kind of mixed up with ah the.
52:07.89
calltocourage
And.
52:20.65
David A Charles
The overarching conditioning that we've received around men masculinity like some of the the femininity embodiment work that I did some of the narratives they were giving and why I'm saying why I said back then was that I wonder how helpful it was embedded in some of that was.
52:33.18
calltocourage
Yes.
52:39.20
David A Charles
Masculinity is like 1 of the things they said is masculinity is the you know war and violence come from masculinity I was just like that's that's that's not the truth. There's you know there's different ways that we enact war and violence within if we're in more and masculine or more in feminine. But there's. You know there was conditioning embedded into the personal development around the negativity or toxicity of masculinity and I see that a lot in personal development like masculine being talked about as being cold hard or rigid and you need to be more in effeminine and soft and flowing and that sort of stuff. So yeah I feel like I've kind of danced on a few different pieces. There.
53:13.35
calltocourage
Um, and.
53:18.30
David A Charles
Um, yeah, yeah curious if there's what do? what do you hear when I was when I was speaking to that. What's your sort of belief around personal development and men.
53:18.78
calltocourage
Um.
53:31.60
calltocourage
I think I think and as a general theme there tends to be this absent father as a potential theme in in our society at the moment you touched on it as a function of um, the industrial age where men.
53:47.44
calltocourage
Of working age would leave the house and suddenly then boys were left to be raised in schools which are mostly teachers tend to be mostly women in schools and or then raised by moms at home where dads are not present and yeah, it's not something that you can just get a woman to. Teach what masculinity is this is the healthy expression of the masculine. It's really an embodied transmission that needs to happen in order for young men to be able to receive this part and be able to see what it's like to be able to hold boundaries and to be courageous and to yeah walk with purpose and to. Be stoic and humble and so I think there's ah, there's definitely that as as 1 theme um I think one of the challenges as well is we have been. We've been labeling our emotions. You know we like this is a bad thing to do. This is not ah this is not a good thing to do this is how we are I mean I'm from south african we have. Of british descent this sense of like politeness as a general theme where we' always be okay with other people and often what tends to happen is you never get to what's genuinely true because we don't want to talk about the bad news like I'm not going to go for a beer and tell you and I'm having a tough time at home or my business is shit I've tended and this is my own story. Ah, tended to rather tell the the happy stories that made me look a specific way. But how I understand that is when I'm not authentically communicating what's alive with me. It's absolutely impossible to build trust meaning when my words don't match my energy some part of you doesn't trust me and you can't quite put your finger on it. You'll be like hey Gareth.
55:20.46
calltocourage
How things going with your partner and if it's turbulent and I go yeah, they're good, but they're not like some part of you goes like like something just doesn't quite match. What I said my words where things were good but some part of your energy system your animal body is connected to me in a way that you can feel that things are not good and so. That starts to degrade the general sense of us being able to trust each other whether we're having a conversation as 2 men or even in our in our relationships at work or our relationships at home with our partners if you're not able to authentically communicate what's alive this courageous conversations from the heart you what you said moving this energy. It continues to get you know other built up or completely suppressed and then comes out sideways and then so if you hold it for long enough. It has to move somewhere and if you're not moving that energy then it comes out as unhealthy rage and all these sort of bad emotions in inverted commas that are not mature like there is something about having.
56:00.53
David A Charles
I mean.
56:17.90
calltocourage
A strong roar or a fire that comes from rage when it's required and done with love and with with real presence but we not often modeled that not in not on the screens not in many men in our world and until we consciously take that and actually start to embody it and see it in safe spaces.
56:26.25
David A Charles
Are.
56:37.72
calltocourage
Think it's really hard to access because we don't We don't really know how to do that. So I think that's that's one of the challenges. Um I think we've got a a strong over identification with money and work as as men and a theme like so ah I'm talking about the world I came from.
56:42.37
David A Charles
Hello.
56:56.58
calltocourage
Um, yeah, it was just all about money. That's all we spoke about and that was the competition and the the rush to try and achieve more and there was like a status game that we all tended to play and I think it not only took us out of the homes and away from raising the young men that we're talking about now that have apps and fathers. But it's also just.
57:15.22
calltocourage
Too much time spent away from the things that really matter most you know and if you're serving your mission suite but I know many men that are not. They're just purely there to pay the bills because I think we also live in a world where we've acquired so much with debt. That you're on this hamster wheel that you have to continually hustle and if you don't the people that you love and care about are not going to be okay so I think there's ah there' an imbalance in what we've put our priority on and I think money is perhaps one of those things and so yeah, having a space to have these types of conversations and just to be able to.
57:50.72
calltocourage
Recognize and heal as a function of is the saying in men's work I'm sure you know that your work is my work and my work is your work meaning you and I sit in a safe container like a men circle similar to where we met and someone like you stands up and says fuck up just chase money my entire life and I'm fucking bored of it. And it's suddenly the first time I've heard anybody say that there's a part of me that just goes oh thank god me too. You know there's that sense of like a shared struggle that in some ways you coming forward. Not only gives you the relief of being able to speak openly and be received by the men inside the circle. But also for the men inside the circle that are holding something similar. Maybe not exactly the same but a similar theme to be able to feel it the work happens for both of us and the entire circle as a whole. So I really feel that yeah, that's that's really the power of coming together as men and and sharing these these collective themes. And and troubleshooting them together in a way that I don't think is possible to do in a mixed group because men you know sometimes signaling. You know there's ah, an idea of wanting to look a specific way having feminine energy in a circle changes the dynamic in a way that I don't think we always have access to. Really being able to drop it in a way that it's we do and it's only men.
59:06.95
David A Charles
Um, absolutely curious about what do you see the what we're being asked to step into is men what we're being Asked. What do you feel like the the highest potentiality that we're being asked as men to. Kind of embody in this time.
59:26.59
calltocourage
What comes up for me initially is authenticity like I don't think there's a way you know it's not like this is the thing I think it's really a sense of recognizing that we all have a different gift to bring to the world And. Ah, you can call this purpose or mission or so or anything to that effect and your mission and my mission are going to be slightly different in some ways. But if we don't allow ourselves the spaciousness to listen to what that is and then give ourselves permission to step into that and serve it. However, that is whether it's a. Career path that pays us money or not is not really the point. It's really about sharing our authentic truth. Whatever that is our gift that's been given to us by I think something greater than ourselves resentment starts to build. You know there's only so long that you can fill your life with material goods and. You know relationships that signal certain things I think that for me is the authentic place of recognizing What is it that I've been called to do and then moving with that because I think that also becomes for me the model that other people in my world around me in my men circle and you know. The the youngsters behind me are connected to it's like okay, there's somebody who I can see I'm not sure what's happening there but I can see he's doing what he came to do and there's like a ah resonance energetically that I think is transmitted through through being in service of what we came here to do as men and I.
01:00:48.80
David A Charles
Um, and I.
01:00:57.22
calltocourage
Actually believe that this is probably more important than our relationships and family I think this is as men the thing that we need to do. We need to find out what our mission is and serve it because when we're doing that we feel full in a way that we're able to show up fully for our partners and and our families and I think that's. The authenticity is I think the piece for me that we're being called to do because I feel when you're doing that everything else sort of comes into into resonance. You know when you when you stick with what you have been called to do for long enough. You will find a way to.
01:01:27.18
David A Charles
Um.
01:01:32.54
calltocourage
Manitar or or pay the bills. You know you'll you'll be able to to hold that truth in a way that I think is is is what we've been called to do and that's I think that's what it is I'm open to hear your your reflections. What do you think we're being called to.
01:01:43.57
David A Charles
Awesome! Yeah I'd love to just ask you a question about that. So the podcast is called all to courage and I hear that being sort of like your mission or you sort of your message to men in this moment is that would you describe that as being the.
01:01:49.54
calltocourage
Um, yeah, um.
01:02:03.26
David A Charles
1 of the pieces that you've been asked to step into most strongly that perhaps that you had to really find the courage to step into and own your and authenticity has that been like ah a strong theme in your life. Um a strong mission or strong thing that you've had to step into.
01:02:18.11
calltocourage
I think I think the part of being an authentic guide on a particular path. Let's call it a healer inherently has the wounded healer as part of it. You know you're not able to be the. Authenticity coach until you have been the person that hasn't been authentic in your life and so I'm very connected to a version of me which the story that I told earlier about putting on a specific front so that I could signal to the world of how I thought I needed to show up as Gareth which included. Not dumping my bad news on you and a reoccurring theme of a peoplepleaser young version of me which is a polite boy has definitely been part of my journey and I've noticed in the path in the past where I haven't been that and exactly as I explained it earlier like I've noticed where my inauthenticity. Has made it impossible to build trust so I would try to have a relationship but I couldn't be authentically me for a number of reasons one I couldn't own my desires. He has one I felt a lot of sexual energy in my body but I didn't feel like I could authentically move and have multiple levers in a way that felt alarmed because. I had a story that looked like 1 partner blah blah blah and so when I moved out of my authenticity I would go into relationship but I wasn't properly aligned with my truth and so I was out of my authenticity I couldn't build trust and the relationships that all fall apart and I couldn't quite hold all these pieces in my life and the same was true for my work. You know if I was to.
01:03:50.38
calltocourage
Be completely honest with myself I wouldn't have necessarily chosen to build an advertising agency that was selling more and more Pepsi to more and more people in poor townships in South Africa but the money story dragged me along and so that was again like this validation of like okay well I'll do this for the money so I had a. Ah, money wound or a money validation of how I wanted to build my business and so all of those created this reality around me which in some ways was safe because it's what I knew but I wasn't very happy and so my world was starting to collapse around me in certain areas and. My body was starting to give me pretty clear signs that the stress that I was putting it under was was not good for me and it requires a lot of courage to say I'm going to burn all of this stuff down and try something completely. New.
01:04:44.50
David A Charles
Um, ah.
01:04:44.33
calltocourage
And I think life brings you these opportunities and either you're you're listening closely enough to to courserect along the way I wasn't and yeah, my business started to fail. My body started to fail I was in a place where I just felt like I hit a proper proper bottom where I was like fuck I can't do this anymore I just i'm. Spend this is shit I don't like this I don't like this I didn't feel safe in my friendship circles. It was all me but I think I had to get to that place where I'm like okay now I have to make a different decision and so what you spoke about the learning that you're having with Amy is something I'm learning as well and I say. Listening at some level or feeling at some level is more part of the feminine of being like oh what is the world wanting me to do here. What is the magic that I'm being called to It's definitely not continuing building this advertising agency anymore at year six I could have heard that but I didn't It took me to year ten to be. You know, having a dark night of the soul to be like okay, no more I can't anymore and so I think we get these opportunities and perhaps this is the journey that we go through as we mature. Is to listen more and to be like ah okay, you can start to refine that nuance and be like okay this doesn't feel like a a yes anymore and I'm going to give myself permission to change so the courage theme for me was okay I'm going to let all of this go and just see what happens and step into the unknown not knowing what's going to happen for me. It was a travel adventure that.
01:06:10.12
calltocourage
Left South africa also got me to and Nlp and a couple of different healing modalities and really a journey of reconnecting to myself self-love accepting my desires accepting and loving me which then gets me to a place where I can as you said earlier hold my boundaries for things that are not aligned for me. And from there this authenticity comes and then things start to line up and my outside world starts to reflect this back to me but it's a courageous act. It's a courageous act to let go of the things that are safe the relationship that's been there for a certain amount of time the job the city. Whatever those things are so I think it's.
01:06:35.79
David A Charles
Then.
01:06:46.60
calltocourage
That's been my journey with with connecting to courage and yeah, my refinement of it is hopefully listening more than I have you heard the analogy that God whispers have you heard this story. So yeah, for those who happen. It's basically like yeah God whispers when he wants you to shift something in your laugh and if you don't listen he talks.
01:06:55.52
David A Charles
You heard? yeah.
01:07:06.47
calltocourage
If you don't listen he may shout and then eventually he rolls a bolder down the Hill but he'll get you to change at some level and so my journey is really coming back to this place of just being in silence and creating space to listen to where laugh is calling me and yeah, that feels like the.
01:07:11.20
David A Charles
But.
01:07:22.70
calltocourage
The refinement of me on my my masculine path towards carrier.
01:07:23.86
David A Charles
Awesome! Beautiful! Yeah I Love the the one of the ways that I say the God whispers is feather brick or truck and it's like God Ah God all God to go hit with a feather then he'll throw a brick and then he'll hit hit hit you with a truck. Um, yeah.
01:07:32.82
calltocourage
Um, ah into the direct. Yeah, ah.
01:07:42.60
David A Charles
And like what what are you going to listen to you're going to listen to the feather. Are you going to wait for the truck. Yeah, and sometimes it needs to be the truck sometimes it needs to be the truck to kind of wake wake you up like I've had I don't know whether I've had I wouldn't describe as having truck moments. But I've certainly had a lot of brick moments.
01:07:46.50
calltocourage
And.
01:07:54.80
calltocourage
Um, and new.
01:08:00.47
calltocourage
And.
01:08:01.36
David A Charles
Yeah, like ah companies ending like going bankrupt or you know heaps of different moments. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:07.86
calltocourage
Yeah, so what was what was your answer to that same question. What do you feel where you're being called to or Masculinity is being called to what's the theme.
01:08:19.54
David A Charles
I Really love the the authenticity I see that as kind of kind of being like the end goal of men just landed grounded connected um to themselves authentic to who they are the man they are to their own. You know their own expression that wants to come through the world I see the pathway of doing that of one of the models that I love working with is the that where like imagine sort of like 3 circles. There's it's going to be a little bit hard on ah on a podcast but the sense of there's. Essentially healthy, underactive and overactive and that I see the pathway for men is to really explore the different aspects of themselves the different aspects of masculinity and to explore where are they underactive where are they repressing where are they disowning. Certain qualities. Maybe they're repressing their their own sense of certainty or in annoying or clarity or vision direction Healthy Aggression Sexuality Authority influence and really looking and owning those and in a sense like activating those qualities. And then on the other side with overactive looking at where are they overactive where are they being reactive where are these qualities showing up in a distorted sense where they're creating destruction. Um, you know I see toxic masculinity being about this side the overactive the reactive side.
01:09:50.90
David A Charles
So where is your your leadership or your authority your influence your sexuality your assertiveness your in a knowing where is that showing up in a reactive way that it's creating disharmony in your environment and then essentially like stepping into and exploring like what's the healthy.
01:09:50.67
calltocourage
Um, heaven.
01:10:02.37
calltocourage
Fifth.
01:10:09.39
David A Charles
Landed authentic expression of these for me. So yeah I love that the authenticity is sort of like the end goal and I see that being one of the pathways for men exploring where am I underactive disowning where am I being reactive overactive. Um yet distorted.
01:10:21.47
calltocourage
Um, and.
01:10:28.87
David A Charles
Yeah, because what I've noticed for myself is exploring these 2 different sides of shadow or dysfunction. It's allowed me and healing my relationship with both has allowed me to connect into what's my authentic expression of. Assertness confidence Clarity Vision direction influence sexuality receptivity um self worth. Yeah, you.
01:10:58.28
calltocourage
So beautiful. What's what are you tracking in yourself. What has been your sort of core wound or the shadow that you find as a theme in your life self worth.
01:11:05.50
David A Charles
Ah, self- worth for sure. Yeah self-worth has been a really big one. You know part of that when I mentioned about that that flag in the ground moment with that relationship that was part of it that was part of self-worth of being like I'm actually.
01:11:18.79
calltocourage
Yeah, let's see that.
01:11:23.79
David A Charles
Worthy of having a partner that is responsible. That's willing that loves me so deeply and yeah, that has been a huge part of my journey that's opened up the possibility of being more confident being more assertive being more certain. Having my sense of direction being more influential. Um, yeah, owning my sexuality more as well. Yeah, yeah, certainly self-worth and then also some of the some of the stronger aspects as well. Um, like I was quite.
01:11:50.22
calltocourage
A.
01:12:02.69
David A Charles
Reactive when I was a teenager like I would you know I kind of swing between repression and and reactivity. But I would say that you know at times I'd be a nuclear bomb waiting to go off and so there's been a really big journey of you know when I went through that feminine journey There was like I actually moved a lot.
01:12:15.57
calltocourage
That's an.
01:12:22.70
David A Charles
More into the repressed side and I really disowned a lot of those traits because I was like oh they're toxic. They're unhealthy. They're not helping me I need to be more surrendered and in flow and I did but it wasn't it wasn't in separation from those. So then there was a journey of reintegrating those aspects and.
01:12:32.74
calltocourage
And again.
01:12:41.93
David A Charles
Coming to a place I've had a yeah big journey around like some strong you know, strong assertiveness um being a dominant force in my life not being dominant over others but just being dominant in my own life. Um, yeah, being convicted holding strong boundaries.
01:12:58.69
calltocourage
Are.
01:13:00.58
David A Charles
That sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, like it being okay for me to be that way and part of that was the self worth because I it was like well I love myself I Love myself and that's part of who I am I I am. Quite an assertive person and I do speak when I'm speaking from an authentic place I do speak with a lot of certainty and and conviction I like to move in the world in that way and that's actually it's disingenuous for me to.
01:13:34.89
calltocourage
Um.
01:13:38.94
David A Charles
Not be confident assertive and I believe that for for a lot of people actually for for like for a lot of people that it's like that's in their own way in their own way. Yeah.
01:13:53.58
calltocourage
Beautiful. Yeah I've seen you write something which I'd love to ask you about and maybe it's this is the right time to bring it the collective theme that we have around Authority as ah as a theme in our personal lives and collectively if you want to speak into.
01:14:05.61
David A Charles
Um.
01:14:09.41
calltocourage
The theme of authority.
01:14:11.15
David A Charles
Yeah, Authority is a powerful one because a lot of the times when people mention it they think about the tyrant they think about um, external Authority figures having power over over them whether or not that be the government or you know when we're. In Schools. It was the teacher had authority and within that. Yeah, we just have ah I see so many of us have a negative relationship with Authority and that causes us to disown our own sense of inner authority our own inner sense of. When you track back within that that post that you're talking about I spoke about that the root of that is author the root of authorities is essentially author authorship. So I see there being a strong journey of us and this is part of. Work that I do as well is helping men to uncover their relationship with Authority where does it show up in an overactive sense where they're trying to you know at times they might want to try and force or control their life or what's going on or other people.
01:15:17.17
calltocourage
FFF.
01:15:18.94
David A Charles
But equally they may disown that maybe they're more in the people please and maybe they're more with the the go and the flow and this can show up within one man. So I see there being an invitation for for men to to own and uncover their relationship with their own inner authority and look at Authority figures. Yeah.
01:15:27.18
calltocourage
Um.
01:15:38.59
David A Charles
Maybe it's their mum and dad but really just go on that journey of becoming an authority in their own life and that's part of what when you were talking about um Authenticity. It's like being able to direct your own life being the authority being because if you are. At the the whim of someone else else's Authority. It's very hard actually to be truly authentic to yourself if you're being governed by someone else. So yeah, Authority is such a big topic and it's a little bit taboo Um, but yeah, there's there's an invitation to do the shadow work around that. And to own the power of it. It's incredibly powerful.
01:16:19.20
calltocourage
Can you just bring back in I Want to hear you say the the part of author being a part of this.
01:16:27.40
David A Charles
Yeah, so author. That's that's the root it actually it's interesting. Actually when you track back The the origin of the word. It's like or orta or orator. Um, even though the word author is in authority. But it's essentially yeah, your ability to to write to create um to to author something so by owning your authority you are authoring your stepping into your power and ability to author your life and to create your life to write your life. Rather than having it written for you.
01:17:04.90
calltocourage
Thank you That is exactly what I wanted you to say because yeah, the basis of my work is also part of the training that I take men on is this creating of a life script. You know we have this very clear plan that if I was going to build a house I wouldn't just walk outside and start ordering things and hope that it. Ah.
01:17:12.35
David A Charles
Earth.
01:17:21.38
calltocourage
All fell together in the right way. It would be very clear that I would need to create a plan with specific intentions and desires and timelines but none of us tend to do this for our own lives. We don't author our own lives in a way that's like this is what I want to call in and until you know what that plan is. It's almost impossible to make decisions and you end up. Not authoring your own life and people tend to push their dreams onto you because you don't actually know where you want to go and so this idea of being very intentional about what you want to create and actually scripting what you want in your relationships when it comes to money when it comes to serving a mission when it comes to partnership all of those things. It's only possible to know where you want to go until you've when you've taken the time to intentionally create it and to create those scripts and to author it. So yeah, so beautiful I'm so glad you you touched on that. Thank you.
01:18:05.00
David A Charles
And we speak to a lot of women that are kind of asking. They kind of ask the question of like oh I want my man to you know have a vision or to lead to lead our relationship somewhere and that's.
01:18:17.93
calltocourage
That.
01:18:23.25
David A Charles
That's the path. That's that's part of the pathway of like well what do you actually want to create beginning to author like men authoring their vision for their own lives firstly and then you know seeing it as larger and larger circles taking responsibility authoring their own lives and then.
01:18:24.60
calltocourage
Listen.
01:18:42.58
David A Charles
The the life that they see with their partner the life they see with their family the life they see with their extended family their community their society the world like it's seeing it as expanding circles rather than it can be so easy to be like the world I've got this vision for the world like some people kind of but.
01:18:52.56
calltocourage
Um.
01:19:02.29
David A Charles
That can almost be like a separation from actually just being landed and grounded here and and and owning what's going on in my immediate circle. Yeah Jordan Peterson talks a bit about it actually in terms of the responsibility. We need to first take responsibility for our self family community world and.
01:19:12.21
calltocourage
Um.
01:19:21.50
David A Charles
The the expanding of those circles. Yeah.
01:19:24.33
calltocourage
Um, yeah I've got a similar theme which is self-love in the beginning. Ah interpersonal love and universal love expanding art and yeah, many people are out there trying to save the world but they don't love themselves and it's like the.
01:19:35.12
David A Charles
Earth.
01:19:37.55
calltocourage
The ripple effect is that it can't ripple out in ah in a safe and cohesive way or a sound and cohesive way until you start with the inner Circle. So Once that's solid then your family starts to be thoughted and then it starts to filter out into your community and then into the world and so it has to start with ah a strong deep connection and a continual. Watering and refinement of Self-love before it ripples out in those those circles.
01:19:59.21
David A Charles
Absolutely and just as you were describing that if we're focusing on kind of fixing the external world but we don't have Self-love like we can actually be almost like planting the seat like I Love the sense that. Every action that we have has has a seed and that seed is like the almost the embodiment or the the subconscious intention that we're carrying if we're coming from a place of not being connected to True. Love true Acceptance. What's the seed. Maybe you know there might be anger or Rage. That's. That's actually the the seed that's being planted from the actions even though like and if you were coming from a place of Self-love you could do the same actions but the the kind of the consequences of that is different because you planned at a different seed. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:20:37.40
calltocourage
Um, and internet.
01:20:49.11
calltocourage
They're cool. That's cool. Yeah, sweet Nice What? ah did this is a good time for me to ask you about? um ah sacred vow.
01:20:54.73
David A Charles
My.
01:21:00.60
David A Charles
Yes.
01:21:02.34
calltocourage
Share what this creation is what the the vision is behind it and um, yeah, give us a little insight into what that looks like.
01:21:10.17
David A Charles
Beautiful so sacred of hours is a podcast that Amy and I run and essentially we talk about relationships we talk about um the the sort of the mission. The purpose behind it is to create secure intimate passionate. Loving relationships in the world on the on the podcast. We talk about things like mascule and feminine talk a bit about sort of shadow work. We talk a bit about um, overarching themes within the world talk about yeah intimacy communication. That sort of stuff basically just around around that topic. Yeah, ah in the first few episodes we actually detail more deeply our our own story and our own journey our own sort of becoming into our relationship and yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:21:46.29
calltocourage
Um, and and.
01:21:53.69
calltocourage
Beautiful. What have you learned from being a podcast.
01:22:00.85
David A Charles
The biggest thing is authenticity. You know we we did the first few episodes. We just really spoke like the real real of the relationship was totally unscripted and ah the power of it. We reflect. We were reflected back. You know through those episodes and also the the later episodes just that we you know we don't come on with a script. We don't come on to portray ourselves in a certain way. We just speak. What's actually real and authentic and that has created so much resonance with.
01:22:33.50
calltocourage
This is.
01:22:37.87
David A Charles
With other people. It's actually been recalibrating for me Personally if like oh shit, you know sometimes there's this I notice this narrative inside of myself from the past is like I need to be something or I need to portray a certain image rather than just oh, it's me and that's also woven in with the self-worth conversation. It's like oh.
01:22:40.63
calltocourage
Are.
01:22:57.50
calltocourage
Um, and I.
01:22:57.30
David A Charles
Um, worthy just as I am right now right here. So yeah, that's been ah that's been a big thing. The resonance of authenticity. It creates a tsunami of of like waves and ripples. Yeah, what about for yourself. What have you noticed with doing a podcast.
01:23:06.33
calltocourage
Wow Feels better.
01:23:16.95
calltocourage
I noticed that theme of you know how you do some things is how you do everything. There's there's a general sense that yeah when I started this I'm like I'm going to do one a week and I started and we did the first 12 episodes and I didn't have the systems and processes in place. First of all to deliver it? well. And so I got this like sort of burnout piece which was happening and we're rushing from one week to the next to get it out so there was definitely a part of me that was like okay dude this is you've got your whole life to create this podcast put it out when it feels in a good rhythm and I've built the team around it to be able to promote it. I love having conversations. You know it seems to connect so directly to what it is that I'm talking about which is the authentic conversations that we spoke about from the heart of being able to connect to other people and yeah, while the conversations are for men I speak to men and women. About life stuff. You know some of the challenges of what it's like to be in a body what it's like to date someone that's going through perimenopause like have authentic conversations about what's genuinely alive and yeah I've noticed over the last few years the teachers that I've been around the friendship circles that I've been around I've had so many beautiful conversations that often I would be like ah I wish I could have shared this somehow or I wish I had had access to this conversation a few months or years ago and so the podcast gives me a platform to be able to do that and I think you know.
01:24:38.81
calltocourage
Just like this I wouldn't have had this conversation with you had I not had a podcast you know like you and I met at a time you know in 19 and our lives just took different parts but there's something about the podcast that just gives you. Like a permission slip to reach out to someone and say hey let's just hang out and record our conversation I like what you're doing in the world I don't know exactly what it is but I'll get a sense there'd be some magic in it for me and hopefully by recording this conversation fuck I've learned so much as a function of being in your space and what your journey's been like and some of the themes and. Different ways of looking at the same things. So all of that is just being rich and then like I said you know your work is my work and then you know a couple thousand people listen to this episode and they also get to go like ha thank god I'm not the only 1 dancing with this and so yeah, it lights me up to be able to have this platform.
01:25:10.92
David A Charles
A.
01:25:26.99
calltocourage
To be able to have these conversations and to for it to be distributed out into the ether through through the digital. Um, one of the themes that that I've got in my in my work is I have a desire to expand through the digital because of its low. Ah, barrier to entry and its ability to reach. But I really want to anchor in the physical so actual men sitting around in a circle. It's not you can't replace that in a Zoom call and while our king circle is super super powerful and I love creating that space.
01:25:50.89
David A Charles
9
01:25:57.88
calltocourage
The next iteration of what we create is actually creating the playbooks maybe something similar to mancar project for brothers that are resonating with this to go into their own community and to find 6 men and to hold a biweekly men circle and to actually yeah, sit together and you know have these conversations 1 on one because I think. Ah, love the fact that we can have this while you're sitting in Australia and yeah du I got to meet you sitting around a fire in Australia and I you know you can't just replace that and so I'd like to have the the have both. So yeah I think that's really the the approach that we're taking ah m.
01:26:25.43
David A Charles
Um, no.
01:26:30.20
David A Charles
Amazing! Love it. Yeah I think there's going to be more more need for that in-person stuff as well as we head more digital and even conversations about Ai is super interesting to me my partner and I just talk about that you know.
01:26:45.35
calltocourage
But.
01:26:46.50
David A Charles
I Feel like there's going to be a time of really valuing face to face bally to baly. Um, yeah type connection conversations experiences. Yeah yeah.
01:27:00.67
calltocourage
So good brother. We can the listeners of this podcast connect with you bro. What's ah, what's a good place to get connected to you and your work and they can look for the sacred vow and we'll definitely link it up in the show notes. But yeah have a punt of whatever you have coming up in your world.
01:27:13.85
David A Charles
Yeah, awesome. So social media is the best place so Instagram david.a.charles is my Instagram and yeah sort of like the subtitle of that is the masculinity method and that's primarily my.
01:27:24.46
calltocourage
Um, more terrible business.
01:27:31.49
David A Charles
My key focus. Also you can find me on Facebook as well. It is through David a charles and so yeah, my primary focus is on the masculinity method which is a ah program that I run for men I'm just about about to start an exclusive program for a ah community. But I'll be launching a more public one likely in. Likely to start in April and that's moving through that sort of the the healthy underactive overactive cycle around those different traits and and that sort of stuff also emotional mastery and and that sort of stuff so that's that's a deep like soul.
01:27:51.25
calltocourage
Can.
01:28:00.84
calltocourage
Um.
01:28:09.50
David A Charles
Ah, program offering from from me to the world. That's that's the pathway that I see to authenticity and Amy and I will also be doing like just a pure like relationship for women.
01:28:19.39
calltocourage
Um, and.
01:28:24.70
David A Charles
Um, around femininity and we're we're likely be doing sort of a couple's one as well sometime later in the year but the femininity will be launching getting started in in April. Yeah, awesome. It's been. Ah, yeah, it's been a pleasure. It's been a lot of fun.
01:28:33.26
calltocourage
Beautiful man what he takes for say guess yeah and.
01:28:42.44
David A Charles
Ah, the times gone very very quickly. Thank you so much for yeah, just creating this podcast and and having me on. Thank you.
01:28:48.13
calltocourage
So good brother I'm looking forward to when you consider on the fire together again in person start to meet Amy when that opportunity arises and if you find yourself in Latin America I'll spare room a space for 2 of you to come visit.
01:29:00.54
David A Charles
Amazing. Thank you may Thank you much. Love.
01:29:03.95
calltocourage
Much Love brother.
